On 11/5/2020 11:26 AM, Andeddu wrote:

Biden will be declared the victor due to the deluge of mail-in votes. Trump will declare a formal protracted enquiry which will last several months during
which there will be civil strife, Biden will win in the courts and will be inaugurated as the 46th President of the United States on January 20th 2021.

Short of someone caught doing some really naughty things, that's the
most likely outcome. Minor chance of NV flipping, slightly less chance
with AZ, as of this post.

--
Michael J. Ryan
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Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to HusTler on Thu Nov 05 2020 06:26 pm

Re: Who WON??
By: HusTler to All on Wed Nov 04 2020 02:07 pm

Ok so who won? Or Who do you think won? Why do you think they won? How
long is it going to take before we know who won? Is Trump really
taking this to court?
Let's debate... What do you think USA?

Biden will be declared the victor due to the deluge of mail-in votes. Trump will declare a formal protracted enquiry which will last several months during which there will be civil strife, Biden will win in the courts and will be inaugurated as the 46th President of the United States on January 20th 2021.
on January 20th 2021.

there has been a lot of cheating. some of it on video. and us postal fucked up too.

they are hoping trump will give up and let it go.
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Part of the issue will really coming down to AZ and NV, and I know more
about AZ elections than other states.

Are you hearing anything about AZ polling locations giving voters Sharpies
and telling them they could only use the Sharpies, but that some folks
noticed the Sharpie marked ballots were not being counted?

Seems there may have been some locations where people were handing out ballpoints outside and telling people the Sharpie marker votes wouldn't get counted. They were being run off by poll workers. One of the ballpoint distributors interviewed a girl that came out and said the people who
placed their votes in the machine before hers didn't get their votes
counted, but she used a ballpoint (that the poll workers tried to take from her) and hers was registered by the ballot machine.

They were supposedly doing this (the "vote with a Sharpie or else" stuff)
in Republican areas. Just wondering if that is all hogwash or what might have been going on.


* SLMR 2.1a * Tinnn Rooooooooof! --Rusted!

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Thu Nov 05 2020 04:19 pm

Short of someone caught doing some really naughty things, that's the
most likely outcome. Minor chance of NV flipping, slightly less chance
with AZ, as of this post.

The Dems think they have this election in the bag. Imagine what will happen if Trump overturns the result in court and is handed another term in office. The Far Left are going to go berserk!

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Tracker1 on Sat Nov 07 2020 12:10 am

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Thu Nov 05 2020 04:19 pm

Short of someone caught doing some really naughty things, that's the
most likely outcome. Minor chance of NV flipping, slightly less chance with AZ, as of this post.

The Dems think they have this election in the bag. Imagine what will happen Trump overturns the result in court and is handed another term in office. Th Far Left are going to go berserk!

Yes, the left will go berserk if the election went for Trump, specially after fraud investigations.

But I expect the right would go berserk too if Biden got the election, because all the fraud that is surfacing as of late.

These elections are for show only. There are videos of poll workers grabbing ballots by the bunch and placing them in urns while nobody is looking. If this sort of evidence was presented in a key state and nothing was done about it, next election would have twice the fraud, because it would have been proved fraud is for free. I think that if citizens in key contested areas where there is significative evidence of fraud put up with it today, they will be voting in fixed elections forever more.

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On 11/6/2020 2:19 PM, Dumas Walker wrote:

Part of the issue will really coming down to AZ and NV, and I know more
about AZ elections than other states.

Are you hearing anything about AZ polling locations giving voters Sharpies and telling them they could only use the Sharpies, but that some folks noticed the Sharpie marked ballots were not being counted?

I don't know about *only* being able to use sharpies... the sharpies
work fine, the ballots are offset and have anchor marks on the edges for proper scanning... bleed through isn't an issue.

As to some rejected scans, afaik, they should have been able to re-mark
or get a fresh ballot to use. I know that the sharpies work fine, unless running out of ink and not really marking properly, but afaik, the
polling stations were well equipped.

Seems there may have been some locations where people were handing out ballpoints outside and telling people the Sharpie marker votes wouldn't get counted. They were being run off by poll workers. One of the ballpoint distributors interviewed a girl that came out and said the people who
placed their votes in the machine before hers didn't get their votes
counted, but she used a ballpoint (that the poll workers tried to take from her) and hers was registered by the ballot machine.

Some might have had issues with scans, in general the sharpie works
fine, it's an optical scan, where the bubble spots are what scans, and
offset with anchor markings on the outside edges, unless they're marking
the edges on several sides.

I don't know about specific issues with the tabulation machines, but the sharpies were definitely not the source of the issue... unless the
sharpies were dissappearing ink that is.

They were supposedly doing this (the "vote with a Sharpie or else" stuff)
in Republican areas. Just wondering if that is all hogwash or what might have
been going on.

I don't know about the tabulation sites, or if there was some fishy
stuff there, or with the machines, I can only comment on the ballot
structure and the ability to scan itself. It's not the use of sharpies,
and if the ballots were filled, it should be fine. It *is* possible
that some machines were improperly callibrated, which *could* have been
on purpose that would not detect the shade of dark gray that the
sharpies put, but would detect the darker ink from a pen or gel pen.

The company I work for does printing, not tabulation and doesn't run the tabulation machines or sites...

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The Dems think they have this election in the bag. Imagine what will happen if >Trump overturns the result in court and is handed another term in office. The >Far Left are going to go berserk!

While I would rather Biden not be President, I would rather not see this
get prolonged and overturned in the court, either. The Left will set the
whole damn country on fire then. I have more optimism that the country can survive a year or two of Biden and 2-3 years of Harris than I do the
country surviving what the Left would try to put it through otherwise.


* SLMR 2.1a * "At last I'm organized," he sighed, and died.

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Yes, the left will go berserk if the election went for Trump, specially after >fraud investigations.

But I expect the right would go berserk too if Biden got the election, because >all the fraud that is surfacing as of late.

The difference between the right and left going berserk is that, if the
right goes berserk, most local governments won't put up for it for long so
it won't last long and won't be as widespread.

When the left goes berserk, as we've seen, cities can count on long-term periods of violence and unrest with only light intervention.


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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Nov 07 2020 03:25 am

Yes, the left will go berserk if the election went for Trump, specially after fraud investigations.

But I expect the right would go berserk too if Biden got the election, because all the fraud that is surfacing as of late.

These elections are for show only. There are videos of poll workers grabbing ballots by the bunch and placing them in urns while nobody is looking. If this sort of evidence was presented in a key state and nothing was done about it, next election would have twice the fraud, because it would have been proved fraud is for free. I think that if citizens in key contested areas where there is significative evidence of fraud put up with it today, they will be voting in fixed elections forever more.

The losing side was never going to be happy. I don't think there will be any kind of unity over the next 3 months. The legal proceedings are going to catch the airwaves and dominate the news which will instil hatred and a feeling of injustice over both the Democrats and Republicans. They will have to get to the bottom of these allegations. If there's ANY impropriety there has to be sanctions and punishments. If there's nothing untoward going on and it's a load of hot air, Trump will be viewed as a despot and a sore loser.

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On 11/6/2020 5:10 PM, Andeddu wrote:

Short of someone caught doing some really naughty things, that's the
most likely outcome. Minor chance of NV flipping, slightly less chance
with AZ, as of this post.

The Dems think they have this election in the bag. Imagine what will happen if
Trump overturns the result in court and is handed another term in office. The Far Left are going to go berserk!

Trump doesn't really do that... most likely there will be audits and
recounts in many locations. In terms of some of the fishiness, it won't
be corrected in this election cycle. There might be policy and
procedure shifts between now and the next election, but that takes
legislative action and a lot of pressure, such as with Florida in 2000
and since. Generally, state/local law holds and any changes are done at
that level, and rarely does this change the outcome, though sometimes it
does.

There are 5 states trump needs still in order to win, and that may
include some legislative action... I can tell you right now that NV and
AZ will likely hold as-is, both having restrictions on late ballots in
place, short of anyone confessing to wrong-doing, but a recount could
change things if the "sharpie-gate" leads to discovery if improperly configured tabulators, which I have some doubts about, heads will likely
roll if they do. I can't speak for GA, NC, PA or MI.

(Part of me knows I should just stay off the BBSes and social media for
a while, pressure and stress are just getting hard to handle, and I
wasn't sleeping well before the election.)

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Tracker1 on Sat Nov 07 2020 12:10 am

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Thu Nov 05 2020 04:19 pm

Short of someone caught doing some really naughty things, that's the
most likely outcome. Minor chance of NV flipping, slightly less
chance with AZ, as of this post.

The Dems think they have this election in the bag. Imagine what will happen if Trump overturns the result in court and is handed another term in office. The Far Left are going to go berserk!

they are hoping he will just let it go so 'they can move on and heal'
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Sat Nov 07 2020 09:09 am

(Part of me knows I should just stay off the BBSes and social media for
a while, pressure and stress are just getting hard to handle, and I wasn't sleeping well before the election.)

take some benedryl
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Sat Nov 07 2020 11:19 am

The Dems think they have this election in the bag. Imagine what will happen if >Trump overturns

the result in court and is handed another term in office. The >Far Left are going to go berserk!

While I would rather Biden not be President, I would rather not see this
get prolonged and overturned in the court, either. The Left will set the whole damn country on fire then. I have more optimism that the country can survive a year or tw
of Biden and 2-3 years of Harris than I do the
country surviving what the Left would try to put it through otherwise.

* SLMR 2.1a * "At last I'm organized," he sighed, and died.

if ( isReal(fraud) and isDeclaredWinner(fraudster) ) {
willNeverSeeCleanElectionsAgain(USA);
}

As simple as that.

Something I have learnt from horses is that if you back down once with something, you will be
backing down with it forever.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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-=[ On 11-07-20 09:09, Tracker1 wrote to Andeddu below: ]=-
-=[ Re: Re: Who WON?? ]=-

Hi Tracker1!

(Part of me knows I should just stay off the BBSes and social media for
a while, pressure and stress are just getting hard to handle, and I
wasn't sleeping well before the election.)

I feel the same way, I was hoping for a Trump win as his values align more with my values.

Cheers,
Bryan
bhandfield(at)me(dot)com

... We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Sat Nov 07 2020 11:19 am

While I would rather Biden not be President, I would rather not see this
get prolonged and overturned in the court, either. The Left will set the whole damn country on fire then. I have more optimism that the country can survive a year or two of Biden and 2-3 years of Harris than I do the
country surviving what the Left would try to put it through otherwise.

If their campaign was above board and no notable voter fraud was carried out, they should be in office. I don't think it matters who is in charge now, whether it's Trump or Biden, I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel from an economic perspective. I like to keep an eye on the USA because anything that happens there appears to happen here too. Even during the George Floyd race riots, we had our own movement over here for no apparent reason; statues were being toppled over, etc...

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Sat Nov 07 2020 09:09 am

Trump doesn't really do that... most likely there will be audits and recounts in many locations. In terms of some of the fishiness, it won't
be corrected in this election cycle. There might be policy and
procedure shifts between now and the next election, but that takes legislative action and a lot of pressure, such as with Florida in 2000
and since. Generally, state/local law holds and any changes are done at that level, and rarely does this change the outcome, though sometimes it does.

There are 5 states trump needs still in order to win, and that may
include some legislative action... I can tell you right now that NV and
AZ will likely hold as-is, both having restrictions on late ballots in place, short of anyone confessing to wrong-doing, but a recount could
change things if the "sharpie-gate" leads to discovery if improperly configured tabulators, which I have some doubts about, heads will likely roll if they do. I can't speak for GA, NC, PA or MI.

(Part of me knows I should just stay off the BBSes and social media for
a while, pressure and stress are just getting hard to handle, and I
wasn't sleeping well before the election.)

By and large the election appeared to be fraud free. Trump seems to be focusing on the states which he had massive leads in prior to 100% Democrat mail-in dumps. I don't know if there's any truth to that but it's inconcievable that you could have over 100,000 mail-in ballots ALL being marked Democrat. I'm just a casual observer from overseas so I don't have a dog in this fight... it's quite entertaining though to see what'll become of this mess as Biden is bulldozing ahead with his own future policies and Trump's standing firm, as if he's going nowhere.

Are you pressured and stressed because of the election or other things that are going on in your personal life? You should definitely get some rest and try to look after yourself!

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sat Nov 07 2020 04:48 pm

they are hoping he will just let it go so 'they can move on and heal'

Yes, I've seen them urging him to concede quickly so that the country can move on, come together and heal. The country appears so divisive right now that I don't think that's possible. Trump needs to be defeated in court before anything can happen because, as it stands, a lot of people think their guy has been cheated.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to MRO on Sun Nov 08 2020 11:29 pm

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sat Nov 07 2020 04:48 pm

they are hoping he will just let it go so 'they can move on and heal'

Yes, I've seen them urging him to concede quickly so that the country can move on, come together and heal. The country appears so divisive right now that I don't think that's possible. Trump needs to be defeated in court before anything can happen because, as it stands, a lot of people think their guy has been cheated.

well, a lot of cheating has been going on, that's why. i've seen videos of people inside on voting places tossing ballots. i've seen videos of poll observers being rejected entry.

that's just the stuff i've seen. this is probably happening 100 fold.
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well, a lot of cheating has been going on, that's why. i've seen videos ofpeople inside on voting places tossing ballots. i've seen videos of pollobservers being rejected entry.

that's just the stuff i've seen. this is probably happening 100 fold.
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Oh, theres no more shenanigans than any normal election - and no more shenanigans with the mail-in part than anyone would expect with the vastly larger amount of folks that cast their ballots that way due to it being a pandemic.

I think all the 'we were robbed' folks are just sore.. kicking, screaming, begging and doing ANYTHING they can to change how the democratic system works.

This isn't Russia. Donald Trump lost. The voters turned out, voted hard and elected Joe Biden... I know that nothing I say will change your mind; but come January, You're fired!

All I can say is... watch.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sun Nov 08 2020 09:11 pm

well, a lot of cheating has been going on, that's why. i've seen videos of people inside on voting places tossing ballots. i've seen videos of poll observers being rejected entry.

that's just the stuff i've seen. this is probably happening 100 fold.

Well Trump voters are under no obligation to turn the other cheek, accept Biden as their president-elect and come together with their Democrat neighbours. I don't recall the Democrats accepting Trump as their president, having faith in the democratic process and pushing aside their differences to heal as a nation. They immediately blamed Russian intervention for Trump's presidency and spent years and millions of dollars in pointless investigations trying to get him impeached and removed from office, they attacked Trump's supporters by calling them idiots, racists and misogynists and made concerted efforts to block all of his policies. Now they're wanting Trump supporters to remain calm, concede defeat and accept the vote. Hypocrisy if you ask me!

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to MRO on Mon Nov 09 2020 01:47 pm

Well Trump voters are under no obligation to turn the other cheek, accept Biden as their president-elect and come together with their Democrat neighbours. I don't recall the Democrats accepting Trump as their president, having faith in the democratic process and pushing aside their differences to heal as a nation. They immediately blamed Russian intervention for Trump's presidency and spent years and millions of dollars in pointless investigations trying to get him impeached and removed from office, they attacked Trump's supporters by calling them idiots, racists and misogynists and made concerted efforts to block all of his policies. Now they're wanting Trump supporters to remain calm, concede defeat and accept the vote. Hypocrisy if you ask me!

That tyhpe of thing seems to be the state of the union in the US in recent years. The US has seemed to be very divided, at least since Obama was elected, and I almost want to say I felt like it started (or got worse) when George W Bush was elected in 2000. The 2000 US election was very close, almost a 50/50 split of popular votes. I remember Al Gore won the popular vote, but George W Bush got the majority of the electoral votes, and there was at least one recount (maybe several) in that election. There was a video going around of a vote counter staring at a punch card with a hanging chad, apparently confused about how to count it.

Nightfox

If their campaign was above board and no notable voter fraud was carried out, >they should be in office. I don't think it matters who is in charge now, >whether it's Trump or Biden, I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel >from an economic perspective. I like to keep an eye on the USA because anything
that happens there appears to happen here too. Even during the George Floyd >race riots, we had our own movement over here for no apparent reason; statues >were being toppled over, etc...

What part of Europe are you in? I heard about that happening in the UK but
was not aware that it happened elsewhere.


* SLMR 2.1a * Veni, Vidi, Velcro. (I came, I saw, I stuck around)

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By and large the election appeared to be fraud free. Trump seems to be focusing
on the states which he had massive leads in prior to 100% Democrat mail-in >dumps. I don't know if there's any truth to that but it's inconcievable that >you could have over 100,000 mail-in ballots ALL being marked Democrat. I'm just
a casual observer from overseas so I don't have a dog in this fight... it's >quite entertaining though to see what'll become of this mess as Biden is >bulldozing ahead with his own future policies and Trump's standing firm, as if >he's going nowhere.

It is not uncommon for the mail-in vote, excluding the military votes, to
lean towards Democratic candidates. It is not normal for them to lean at
such a high percentage.


* SLMR 2.1a * I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: paulie420 to MRO on Sun Nov 08 2020 10:16 pm

Oh, theres no more shenanigans than any normal election - and no more shenanigans with the mail-in part than anyone would expect with the vastly larger amount of folks that cast their ballots that way due to it being a pandemic.

there's tons of mail in votes so there must be tons of shit going on.

I think all the 'we were robbed' folks are just sore.. kicking, screaming, begging and doing ANYTHING they can to change how the democratic system works.

i just want a fair count.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to MRO on Mon Nov 09 2020 01:47 pm

Well Trump voters are under no obligation to turn the other cheek, accept Biden as their president-elect and come together with their Democrat neighbours. I don't recall the Democrats accepting Trump as their president, having faith in the democratic process and pushing aside their differences to heal as a nation. They immediately blamed Russian intervention for Trump's presidency and spent years and millions of dollars in pointless investigations trying to get him impeached and removed from office, they attacked Trump's supporters by calling them idiots, racists and misogynists and made concerted efforts to block all of his policies. Now they're wanting Trump supporters to remain calm, concede defeat and accept the vote. Hypocrisy if you ask me!

think about all the money wasted. they could have gave a million dollars to every homeless person or do something productive to improve society.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to MRO on Mon Nov 09 2020 13:47:42

Well Trump voters are under no obligation to turn the other cheek, accept Biden as their president-elect and come together with their Democrat neighbours. I don't recall the Democrats accepting Trump as their president, having faith in the democratic process and pushing aside their differences to heal as a nation. They immediately blamed Russian intervention for Trump's presidency and spent years and millions of dollars in pointless investigations trying to get him impeached and removed from office, they attacked Trump's supporters by calling them idiots, racists and misogynists and made concerted efforts to block all of his policies. Now they're wanting Trump supporters to remain calm, concede defeat and accept the vote. Hypocrisy if you ask me!

Depends if they want to show themselves as being better than the Democrat rabble. No need to stoop to their level. The bigger issue is trust. I don't think that Trump supporters can place any trust in their opposition, not with AOC wanting to make lists and all.

Biden needs to show some initiative, and expunge the bad elements from his party, and restore the Democrats to a pro-workers party that represents the every man. Unlikely.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Mon Nov 09 2020 12:49 pm

That tyhpe of thing seems to be the state of the union in the US in recent years. The US has seemed to be very divided, at least since Obama was elected, and I almost want to say I felt like it started (or got worse) when George W Bush was elected in 2000. The 2000 US election was very close, almost a 50/50 split of popular votes. I remember Al Gore won the popular vote, but George W Bush got the majority of the electoral votes, and there was at least one recount (maybe several) in that election. There was a video going around of a vote counter staring at a punch card with a hanging chad, apparently confused about how to count it.

As the Democrats move even further to the Left, there has been more and more disunity and divisiveness in the country. I believe much of the problem is the US's ailing economic performance. When everybody is fed and in possession of the essentials and have a little hope, the population seems to get along. Now the cracks are visible and are widening. The Left blame Trump and racism/institutional racism as minorities are the worst affected. In truth, because ethnic minorities are proportionally deeper in the poverty line than ethnic whites, they're suffering from the economic problems before the rest of the population. These problems are not going to go away and soon they'll be self-evident to the upper-middle class.

The Al Gore v Bush election was mired in controversy and I heard that if Al Gore hadn't conceded so quickly, he'd have won the election.

I have seen the picture of the ballot counter staring bemusedly at the punch card, lol.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Mon Nov 09 2020 01:21 pm

What part of Europe are you in? I heard about that happening in the UK but was not aware that it happened elsewhere.

I stay in the UK where there were demonstrations all over the country in relation to BLM and George FLoyd. Like I said, we follow the USA very closely over here so anything that happens over the pond happens here too - only in a much smaller scale.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Mon Nov 09 2020 02:35 pm

It is not uncommon for the mail-in vote, excluding the military votes, to lean towards Democratic candidates. It is not normal for them to lean at such a high percentage.

That's the problem. If there's any impropriety at the very base level then the election has been compromised which will cast doubt on the WHOLE democratic process. I know big tech censored anti-Biden news articles and buried positive Trump articles but that's the kind of election meddling you'd expect from partisan private corporations. I am more interested in fraud at the voter level as it can never be tolerated. Both the Democrats and the Republicans should be supporting a full and proper investigation as it's in the interest of America as a nation. No one wants to have a president that 50% of the country view as The Commander in Thief, Democrats SHOULD be pushing to see their man exonerated of ANY wrong-doing. That would make the election result all the sweeter for them.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Nov 10 2020 06:01 am

Depends if they want to show themselves as being better than the Democrat rabble. No need to stoop to their level. The bigger issue is trust. I don't think that Trump supporters can place any trust in their opposition, not with AOC wanting to make lists and all.

Biden needs to show some initiative, and expunge the bad elements from his party, and restore the Democrats to a pro-workers party that represents the every man. Unlikely.

They won't. As I said before, the cultural differences between both groups are irreconcilable at this stage. I beleive Trump supporters are aware that the radical Left, such as AOC and Harris, are waiting in the wings. Biden doesn't appear to have the influence within his own party to expunge these elements. If you've watched the presidential election debates, you'd have observed that Biden has no intention of emulating a Jimmy Carter pro-worker style administration.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Tue Nov 10 2020 05:26 pm

The Left
blame Trump and racism/institutional racism as minorities are the worst affected.

Funny thing, the right also seems to blame Obama for stirring up racism. My understanding is the right believes Obama put enough focus on racial issues that racial tension actually increased.

Nightfox

On 11/7/2020 9:27 AM, Dumas Walker wrote:

When the left goes berserk, as we've seen, cities can count on long-term periods of violence and unrest with only light intervention.

Only when it's useful... Portland and Denver brought the hammer down on protestors after Biden was declared the winner.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

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On 11/7/2020 10:47 AM, Andeddu wrote:

The losing side was never going to be happy. I don't think there will be any kind of unity over the next 3 months.

Not likely... it might have been possible if anyone other than Biden had stayed relatively humble about it... but with AOC, CNN reporters and
others calling for enemy lists, and Biden's press release calling for
thought police (anti-bullying label) online, I don't think it's going to
ease up at all.


--
Michael J. Ryan
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On 11/7/2020 4:19 PM, Argelian wrote:

(Part of me knows I should just stay off the BBSes and social media for
a while, pressure and stress are just getting hard to handle, and I
wasn't sleeping well before the election.)

I feel the same way, I was hoping for a Trump win as his values align more with
my values.

I'm not a fan of Trump, and if the D's had put up someone that wasn't an insider chrony for 5 decades in politics with a grifter as a running
mate, I might have more hope right now.

I also find it *really* hard to support anyone in a political party that doesn't distance itself and includes prominent leaders embracing and
pushing for Marxist-style socialism.

--
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On 11/8/2020 4:07 PM, Andeddu wrote:

If their campaign was above board and no notable voter fraud was carried out, they should be in office. I don't think it matters who is in charge now, whether it's Trump or Biden, I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel from an economic perspective. I like to keep an eye on the USA because anything
that happens there appears to happen here too. Even during the George Floyd race riots, we had our own movement over here for no apparent reason; statues were being toppled over, etc...

I think it's more of a communist smoke screen to tear down the
establishment and bring forward marxist-style socialism. It's literally
the communist playbook. Right now, in the US looks a *LOT* like Russia
did 100 years ago. some of the names have changed, but the plays are
largely the same.

There's some believers, and I think they are being mislead as useful
idiots by those orchestrating.

--
Michael J. Ryan
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On 11/8/2020 4:22 PM, Andeddu wrote:

Are you pressured and stressed because of the election or other things that are
going on in your personal life? You should definitely get some rest and try to
look after yourself!

Both... I work in the elections space, so actually know for a fact a lot
of the made up disinformation being spread. Other bits are plausible
and the culture war is escallating, not winding back. I know people at
work that are stressed, just because some of our systems are going to be audited... nothing was done wrong, but it's stressful all the same.

Even then, my shower had leaked into my kitchen 4 months ago, and
finally, Sunday work started on tearing the old shower out to get a new
one in... various contractor issues, insurance, etc.

--
Michael J. Ryan
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On 11/8/2020 4:29 PM, Andeddu wrote:

they are hoping he will just let it go so 'they can move on and heal'

Yes, I've seen them urging him to concede quickly so that the country can move
on, come together and heal. The country appears so divisive right now that I don't think that's possible. Trump needs to be defeated in court before anything can happen because, as it stands, a lot of people think their guy has
been cheated.

Biden has been relatively humble in his messaging... unfortunately, for everyone else in his party that's signalling as weak and innefectual.
And even Biden's plans aren't really resonating with a majority of the
people so far. Concerning me is his call for "anti-bullying policing" online... I mean, I'm not in favor of bullying, but you have to be able
to counter ideas, and I can only see this ending up with thought police.

Combined with calls for enemy lists of all trump supporters, and getting people fired from jobs and preventing them from working in the future,
it's really concerning.

--
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On 11/8/2020 4:48 PM, Andeddu wrote:

I'd love to see civil war. We're way over do! Bring it on! I have my guns
locked and loaded.

Civil war, economic collapse or both. 2021 is going to be a hell of a year.

We already have economic collapse, with double diget unemployment and
nearly 1/3 to 1/2 of all restaurants gone, with close to 1/3 of all
businesses expected to die before it's done.

As to civil war, given the calls for enemy lists and the 5+ months of
riots, I'm not sure that's avoidable either at this point.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Tue Nov 10 2020 12:52 pm

Combined with calls for enemy lists of all trump supporters, and getting people fired from jobs and preventing them from working in the future,
it's really concerning.

When that crap is widespread you end much with a minicivil war in which you only trade with people of your side, because your people is the only one that will trade with you.

So you get fired for some firm because you don't fit politically, and get eventually accepted in a firm where your views are acceptable. Eventually there will be Right Wing firms and Left Wing
firms because they won't hire people from the other team, and won't have customers from the other team either.

I think radicals have a huge advantage here because as the only people who cares hard enough, they have the luxury of having all sorts of customers while being themselves customers of firms
they approve of. Meanwhile, moderates fund with the radical's firms by using their services withour having the radicals buy services from them in return.

It reminds me of some toxic dynamics that were generated when my father stopped purchasing comics in his regular comics store, because the owner of the store won't purchase anything in my own
store... he says that the world is fucked up and we should form tight networks of closely related business that work for each other, instead of providing services to people who won't give a
damn for us later. I agree in part with the sentiment, but the long term result is that people out of your regular network will soon seem an hostile force, an outside thing, and that is not
good.

I have ceased any trade with people who explicitly takes positions that I consider harmful to me, though, and this includes consuming films from certain producers, because I have the feeling
that any resource I give to them will be used against me.

Sorry for the banter. I had a lot of gin with a bad film and I am sorta messed right now.
--
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Tue Nov 10 2020 02:04 pm

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Tue Nov 10 2020 05:26 pm

The Left
blame Trump and racism/institutional racism as minorities are the worst affected.

Funny thing, the right also seems to blame Obama for stirring up racism. My understanding is the right believes Obama put enough focus on racial issues that racial tension actually increase

Nightfox

The Democratic party has fostered racial based Identity Politics for a long time lready. They have based their discourse on the idea that a particular race is the cause of the problems of all
the other ethnic groups and turned such discourse into a political strategy.

It works great as a strategy in the short run because you can play identity games. "If you are a member of the <ethnic> group, you must vote for us or you are a sold out!" IN the long run it
ends up with ethnic groups trying to smash each other because you convinced them that they are enemies.
--
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Tue Nov 10 2020 18:16:23

Depends if they want to show themselves as being better than the Democrat rabble. No need to stoop to their level. The bigger issue is trust. I don't think that Trump supporters can place any trust in their opposition, not with AOC wanting to make lists and all.

Biden needs to show some initiative, and expunge the bad elements from his party, and restore the Democrats to a pro-workers party that represents the every man. Unlikely.

They won't. As I said before, the cultural differences between both groups are irreconcilable at this stage. I beleive Trump supporters are aware that the radical Left, such as AOC and Harris, are waiting in the wings. Biden doesn't appear to have the influence within his own party to expunge these elements. If you've watched the presidential election debates, you'd have observed that Biden has no intention of emulating a Jimmy Carter pro-worker style administration.

---

The radical left I believe are the biggest danger, and their desire to enact revent will only embolden Trump supporters to want to dig in harder and not concede defeat.

Sadly, the major parties have mechanisms in place to ensure that anyone who could stand a chance to improve the situation and help Americans doesn't stand a chance.

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Well Trump voters are under no obligation to turn the other cheek, accept Biden
as their president-elect and come together with their Democrat neighbours. I >don't recall the Democrats accepting Trump as their president, having faith in >the democratic process and pushing aside their differences to heal as a nation.

Someone I know recently mentioned something about Trump supporters not accepting the outcome of the election quick enough. I reminded them that
they had still not accepted the last one from 4 years ago. They didn't
like that too much. :)


* SLMR 2.1a * I got everything but the part after "Now listen closely."

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When the left goes berserk, as we've seen, cities can count on long-term periods of violence and unrest with only light intervention.

Only when it's useful... Portland and Denver brought the hammer down on protestors after Biden was declared the winner.

Yeah, I saw that about Portland. Pretty damn ironic but also somehow predictable.


* SLMR 2.1a * Florida: when we say, "DUCK!", we don't mean Donald.

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I'm not a fan of Trump, and if the D's had put up someone that wasn't an insider chrony for 5 decades in politics with a grifter as a running
mate, I might have more hope right now.

Me, either. Early on, when there were 20+ candidates, there was a fellow running, from Maryland maybe, who actually seemed pretty moderate. I knew
he'd likely not make it out of the first round cut because of it and he
didn't. Although I did not like their stances on many things, both Andrew
Yang and Tulsi Gabbard seemed to be very level-headed and well spoken. I
also knew that meant they'd not last to the end.

I can pretty much count on the D's for picking someone who is either a
chrony or way too far left for me to consider them.

I also find it *really* hard to support anyone in a political party that doesn't distance itself and includes prominent leaders embracing and
pushing for Marxist-style socialism.

Me also. Just like Fascism, that type of government only works when any opposing views are stamped out and where everyone gives up nearly all of
their personal freedom. It also does not last.


* SLMR 2.1a * Cats remind us that not everything in Nature has purpose.

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I think it's more of a communist smoke screen to tear down the
establishment and bring forward marxist-style socialism. It's literally
the communist playbook. Right now, in the US looks a *LOT* like Russia
did 100 years ago. some of the names have changed, but the plays are
largely the same.

Many people like to point at things "back then" like you cannot learn
anything from them. What was going on over the Summer here (and before in parts of the country) is indeed a lot like what was going on in Russia
leading up to 1917.

There are some people who believe that things that happened less than 20
years ago are irrelevant. Maybe this is the way we've always been, but I
am convinced people are just getting dumber.


* SLMR 2.1a * He who laughs last...had to have it explained.

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Funny thing, the right also seems to blame Obama for stirring up racism. My un
erstanding is the right believes Obama put enough focus on racial issues that r
cial tension actually increased.

Not sure about racial tension specifically, but the division of the country increased between 2008 and 2016. How else do you think Trump got elected?

Fostering identity politics only increases the gaps between people and makes
it harder to find things in common between people from different backgrounds.


* SLMR 2.1a * Never check for an error you don't know how to handle.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Tue Nov 10 2020 12:46 pm

I think it's more of a communist smoke screen to tear down the
establishment and bring forward marxist-style socialism. It's literally
the communist playbook. Right now, in the US looks a *LOT* like Russia
did 100 years ago. some of the names have changed, but the plays are
largely the same.

There's some believers, and I think they are being mislead as useful
idiots by those orchestrating.

Socialism is just a vehicle used to get to the end goal, which is Communism. Harris is openly stating that their policies are pushing for equality of outcome rather than equal opportunities. That's Communism!

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Tue Nov 10 2020 12:50 pm

Both... I work in the elections space, so actually know for a fact a lot
of the made up disinformation being spread. Other bits are plausible
and the culture war is escallating, not winding back. I know people at
work that are stressed, just because some of our systems are going to be audited... nothing was done wrong, but it's stressful all the same.

Even then, my shower had leaked into my kitchen 4 months ago, and
finally, Sunday work started on tearing the old shower out to get a new
one in... various contractor issues, insurance, etc.

I support a full and proper investigation into any election rigging. Trump is entitled to that at a minimum before leaves office. A lot of the shenanigans can be explained however there also appears to be much that can't be explained such as dead people voting, lol. Tucker Carlson has laid out a number of anomalies that have yet to be answered/explained.

As it stands, the Trumpers are going to be very cross if they don't get closure. I reckon many will accept the result if no mass voter fraud is exposed.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Tue Nov 10 2020 12:52 pm

Biden has been relatively humble in his messaging... unfortunately, for everyone else in his party that's signalling as weak and innefectual.
And even Biden's plans aren't really resonating with a majority of the people so far. Concerning me is his call for "anti-bullying policing" online... I mean, I'm not in favor of bullying, but you have to be able
to counter ideas, and I can only see this ending up with thought police.

Combined with calls for enemy lists of all trump supporters, and getting people fired from jobs and preventing them from working in the future,
it's really concerning.

I don't believe these policies are Biden's own. If they do push for "enemy lists" it'll be an incredible attack on free speech which will only cause mass civil unrest as the other side are going to feel like they're not even free to vote for a candidate or government official without being spied on.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Tue Nov 10 2020 12:54 pm

We already have economic collapse, with double diget unemployment and
nearly 1/3 to 1/2 of all restaurants gone, with close to 1/3 of all businesses expected to die before it's done.

As to civil war, given the calls for enemy lists and the 5+ months of
riots, I'm not sure that's avoidable either at this point.

On paper, yes. The collapse hasn't began in the real world yet. The mass unemployment you're experiencing at present is just the precursor for the chaos to come. As much as I don't like the idea, I think there will have to be a police state to maintain order. This happened during "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland where the British Army were in occupation and had checkpoints and road closures, and people were expected to carry papers, ID, etc...

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Nov 11 2020 05:13 am

The radical left I believe are the biggest danger, and their desire to enact revent will only embolden Trump supporters to want to dig in harder and not concede defeat.

Sadly, the major parties have mechanisms in place to ensure that anyone who could stand a chance to improve the situation and help Americans doesn't stand a chance.

There's no middle ground now. It's genuinely quite scary as I see the entire USA as a massive powder keg which, once it explodes, is going to take a lot of us foreigners with them. I don't see much mediation going on between either side now. Perhaps we'll see seperatist movements trying to push for independence from the Union. Who knows!

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to TRACKER1 on Wed Nov 11 2020 11:43 am

Me also. Just like Fascism, that type of government only works when any opposing views are stamped out and where everyone gives up nearly all of their personal freedom. It also does not last.

The problem with these regimes is precisely that, once you reach that point, it is very hard for the country to break out.

Venezuela is a prime example. 90% of the population or so is starving. However, Maduro and his minions keep the army well fed, so the 10% of the remaining population can stay on top unchallenged. The only way this regime may change is if the head honcho decides to end it, but in that case, the army would turn against him most likely.

See Spain too. General Franco did just the same thing (with the very important difference that people stopped starving by the middle of the 50s). The army and "cultural agents" (church, schools) were bought in by the regime. If you were hungry you just had to join the army... they gave you food and taught you a bunch of professions in exchange of defending the regime and shooting those who disliked it. The regime only ended because Franco *decided* to end it - and it got resistence from fascist sectors in the army, to the point there was an attempted coup as a result.

This is why when I see attempts at making some group of people dependant from the government, I shiver. Once they depend on you, they are in your pocket, and you can command them to fight your opposition...
--
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Tracker1 on Wed Nov 11 2020 07:07 pm

As it stands, the Trumpers are going to be very cross if they don't get closure. I reckon many will accept the result if no mass voter fraud is exposed.

This.

If there is a beliveable investigation with a beliveable conclussion and something is done about it either way, things will get calm.

If people thinks there is no investigation or that the investigation is supressed, I expect people in the disputed states to start setting things on fire.
--
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Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Nov 11 2020 05:13 am

The radical left I believe are the biggest danger, and their desire to enact revent will only embolden Trump supporters to want to dig in harder and not concede defeat.

Sadly, the major parties have mechanisms in place to ensure that anyone who could stand a chance to improve the situation and help Americans doesn't stand a chance.

There's no middle ground now. It's genuinely quite scary as I see the entire USA as a massive powder keg which, once it explodes, is going to take a lot of us foreigners with them. I don't see much mediation going
on between either side now. Perhaps we'll see seperatist movements
trying to push for independence from the Union. Who knows!

I think the only way forward now is the dissolution of the USA into its components parts. It seems that it is different nations held together, loosely. I can't see how middle America would tolerate being governed by Californian liberals.

... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Tracker1 on Wed Nov 11 2020 07:22 pm

On paper, yes. The collapse hasn't began in the real world yet. The mass unemployment you're experiencing at present is just the precursor for the chaos to come. As much as I don't like the idea, I think there will have to be a police state to maintain order. This happened during "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland where the British Army were in occupation and had checkpoints and road closures, and people were expected to carry papers, ID, etc...

Yep.
I visited the UK and Ireland in 2013, and when going through Ireland, one song I had stuck in my head was U2's "Sunday Bloody Sunday"..

Nightfox

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to NIGHTFOX on Wed Nov 11 2020 11:52 am

Funny thing, the right also seems to blame Obama for stirring up racism.

My understanding is the right believes Obama put enough focus on racial
issues that racial tension actually increased.

Not sure about racial tension specifically, but the division of the country increased between 2008 and 2016. How else do you think Trump got elected?

Fostering identity politics only increases the gaps between people and makes it harder to find things in common between people from different backgrounds.

"How are we going to get rid of racism? Stop talking about it!" - Morgan Freeman

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Nov 12 2020 08:55 pm

I think the only way forward now is the dissolution of the USA into its components parts. It seems that it is different nations held together, loosely. I can't see how middle America would tolerate being governed by Californian liberals.

It would make sense. Neither side can truly change the direction of the USA in the way they envisage due to the roughly 50/50 split between Democrat and Republican in the House of Representatives. Like you said, splitting the USA into component parts in a manner which they're able to hold autonamy and make agreements/allegiances with like-minded states would be a far more beneficial solution than all this pointless bickering. Let the Left do whatever it is they want to do and, likewise, let the Right do whatever the hell they want to do. In 20-30 years, we'll see which side has the best social and economic policies by comparing metrics.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Thu Nov 12 2020 07:31 pm

It would make sense. Neither side can truly change the direction of the USA the way they envisage due to the roughly 50/50 split between Democrat and Republican in the House of Representatives. Like you said, splitting the USA into component parts in a manner which they're able to hold autonamy and mak agreements/allegiances with like-minded states would be a far more beneficia solution than all this pointless bickering. Let the Left do whatever it is t want to do and, likewise, let the Right do whatever the hell they want to do In 20-30 years, we'll see which side has the best social and economic polici by comparing metrics.

Last time they tried something similar, there was a war about it, if I recall correctly.
--
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Me also. Just like Fascism, that type of government only works when any opposing views are stamped out and where everyone gives up nearly all of their personal freedom. It also does not last.

The problem with these regimes is precisely that, once you reach that point, it
is very hard for the country to break out.

Agreed.

This is why when I see attempts at making some group of people dependant from >the government, I shiver. Once they depend on you, they are in your pocket, and
you can command them to fight your opposition...

The Democrats in the US generally run on a "you need us to... because you cannot do it yourself" platform. They like keeping people dependent on the goverment because it gives them a base they can take for granted when it
comes voting time.


* SLMR 2.1a * PCMCIA = People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms

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Socialism is just a vehicle used to get to the end goal, which is Communism. Harris is openly stating that their policies are pushing for equality of outcome rather than equal opportunities. That's Communism!

I am not sure what example where communism worked that the numbskulls think they can emulate. There is no place I know of where it has worked and
remained in place and does not involve persistent human rights violations.


* SLMR 2.1a * Quark the Ferengi. Perot the Texan. Separated at birth?

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I think the only way forward now is the dissolution of the USA into its components parts. It seems that it is different nations held together, loosely. I can't see how middle America would tolerate being governed by Californian liberals.

One way how is by the California (and other) liberals moving into
non-liberal areas. Texas and Arizona are a couple of examples. I never thought there would be a day where Texas might be a swing state but it was thought to be before this election.

As best as I can tell, several states are ruled by the desires of a single liberal city or county. Chicago pulls the rest of Illinois left. Detroit
(and the artsy-fartsy NW corner of the lower penninsula) pulls Michigan left. Louisville tries to pull Kentucky left. Las Vegas/Clark County pulls Nevada left.


* SLMR 2.1a * Gender: ___ Male ___ Female _X_ Wraeththu

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Thu Nov 12 2020 19:31:00

I think the only way forward now is the dissolution of the USA into its components parts. It seems that it is different nations held together, loosely. I can't see how middle America would tolerate being governed by Californian liberals.

It would make sense. Neither side can truly change the direction of the USA in the way they envisage due to the roughly 50/50 split between Democrat and Republican in the House of Representatives. Like you said, splitting the USA into component parts in a manner which they're able to hold autonamy and make agreements/allegiances with like-minded states would be a far more beneficial solution than all this pointless bickering. Let the Left do whatever it is they want to do and, likewise, let the Right do whatever the hell they want to do. In 20-30 years, we'll see which side has the best social and economic policies by comparing metrics.

---

Civilisations rot from the cities out, so I would think that at the start, middle America would not be favourable, but over time things will tilt the other way.

It is clear to me though, that the Democrats don't consider themselves as governing for ALL of America.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Thu Nov 12 2020 16:52:22

It would make sense. Neither side can truly change the direction of the USA the way they envisage due to the roughly 50/50 split between Democrat and Republican in the House of Representatives. Like you said, splitting the USA into component parts in a manner which they're able to hold autonamy and mak agreements/allegiances with like-minded states would be a far more beneficia solution than all this pointless bickering. Let the Left do whatever it is t want to do and, likewise, let the Right do whatever the hell they want to do In 20-30 years, we'll see which side has the best social and economic polici by comparing metrics.

Last time they tried something similar, there was a war about it, if I recall correctly.

The war I think has already started, its just the shooting hasn't increased to an intensity where it looks like war. Politically though, the USA is in a civil war, or close to one. It is very clear that not only the parties, but institutions, are choosing their sides, and digging in.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to DENNISK on Thu Nov 12 2020 14:14:00

One way how is by the California (and other) liberals moving into non-liberal areas. Texas and Arizona are a couple of examples. I never thought there would be a day where Texas might be a swing state but it was thought to be before this election.

As best as I can tell, several states are ruled by the desires of a single liberal city or county. Chicago pulls the rest of Illinois left. Detroit (and the artsy-fartsy NW corner of the lower penninsula) pulls Michigan left. Louisville tries to pull Kentucky left. Las Vegas/Clark County pulls Nevada left.

I just heard Alex Jones on Tim Pools TIMCAST say that California is the sphincter that hovers over Austin, Texas, or something to that effect.

You are right, there is a bigger divide between the cities and the rest of the country, than there is between whites and blacks, politically speaking.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Thu Nov 12 2020 04:52 pm

It would make sense. Neither side can truly change the direction of the USA the way they envisage due to the roughly 50/50 split between Democrat and Republican in the House of Representatives. Like you said, splitting the USA into component parts in a manner which they're able to hold autonamy and mak agreements/allegiances with like-minded states would be a far more beneficia solution than all this pointless bickering. Let the Left do whatever it is t want to do and, likewise, let the Right do whatever the hell they want to do In 20-30 years, we'll see which side has the best social and economic polici by comparing metrics.

Last time they tried something similar, there was a war about it, if I recall correctly.

Haha! This time there will be a war (or an authoritarian coercive police state) if they don't do it. They could even elect their own president, though I think something like that may have happened before...

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Thu Nov 12 2020 02:01 pm

I am not sure what example where communism worked that the numbskulls think they can emulate. There is no place I know of where it has worked and remained in place and does not involve persistent human rights violations.

Communism has never worked anywhere EVER. Technology may be able to bridge the gap, however. Communism doesn't work on an economically fundamental level because there is no pricing mechanism in relation to scarce resources. With Capitalism we have supply and demand so resources are priced accordingly. With Communism you just have the state almost arbitrarily making things up which ultimately results in massive pricing errors ending in shortages and broken supply chains. I believe a digital currency may be able to solve that problem as the state will be able to monitor all transactions and use AI to accurately model supply and demand allowing them to price scarce resources accordingly.

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The war I think has already started, its just the shooting hasn't increased toan intensity where it looks like war. Politically though,
the USA is in acivil war, or close to one. It is very clear that not
only the parties, butinstitutions, are choosing their sides, and digging in.

Wow... I mean, I do disagree with you - however, this is the first time I've heard someone talk about this being a thing in the United States... so, my eyes are open to this post... and this idea... and furthermore, I do understand where you're coming from and agree that the violence in America is pretty ridiculous.

My view is that... it always has been, or at least; it has been for decades, so... while I don't think we're in an active civil war - i can see the argument, and thats a scary thing.

I wish we could all just get along, but it seems like that will never happen.



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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Dumas Walker on Fri Nov 13 2020 12:09 pm

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Thu Nov 12 2020 02:01 pm

I am not sure what example where communism worked that the numbskulls thi they can emulate. There is no place I know of where it has worked and remained in place and does not involve persistent human rights violations

Communism has never worked anywhere EVER. Technology may be able to bridge t gap, however. Communism doesn't work on an economically fundamental level because there is no pricing mechanism in relation to scarce resources. With Capitalism we have supply and demand so resources are priced accordingly. Wi Communism you just have the state almost arbitrarily making things up which ultimately results in massive pricing errors ending in shortages and broken supply chains. I believe a digital currency may be able to solve that proble as the state will be able to monitor all transactions and use AI to accurate model supply and demand allowing them to price scarce resources accordingly.

Apology of automatically set prices is not new.

The problem is you need to monitor EVERYTHING for it to be plausible in theory _alone_.

Once everything is monitored you can bet the master of the machine will exploit his powers. For example, pricing coffee higher than it should.... what a coincidence that his cousing has a coffee industrial mill...
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I am not sure what example where communism worked that the numbskulls think >> they can emulate. There is no place I know of where it has worked and
remained in place and does not involve persistent human rights violations.

Communism has never worked anywhere EVER.

I agree, but I did want to leave myself wiggle room for the person(s) who
point out "but China." Yes, they have been Communist for a while but they
have only been able to remain so by persistently squashing all opposing
views, violating the human rights of the persons who foster those views.

As you pointed out, the supply and demand mechanism does not exist and
those governments have a difficult time emulating it. That said, countries like China and the former USSR used that to their advantage also... forcing intentional shortages, famines, etc., in order to kill off those people
they no longer wanted to deal with.


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It is clear to me though, that the Democrats don't consider themselves as gover
ing for ALL of America.

At the national level, they most certainlly do not.


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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: paulie420 to Dennisk on Fri Nov 13 2020 13:29:00

The war I think has already started, its just the shooting hasn't increased toan intensity where it looks like war. Politically though, the USA is in acivil war, or close to one. It is very clear that not only the parties, butinstitutions, are choosing their sides, and digging in.

Wow... I mean, I do disagree with you - however, this is the first time I've heard someone talk about this being a thing in the United States... so, my eyes are open to this post... and this idea... and furthermore, I do understand where you're coming from and agree that the violence in America is pretty ridiculous.

My view is that... it always has been, or at least; it has been for decades, so... while I don't think we're in an active civil war - i can see the argument, and thats a scary thing.

I wish we could all just get along, but it seems like that will never happen.

Sun Tzu in "The Art of War" said that a good general wages war so whan the fighting begins, its just victory fanfare. I think Westerners are naive about war in this sense, and think that if there is no actual shooting, there is no war. But war starts long before the shooting, often. Before the first shots are fired, peopled are strategising, manuevering, seeking alliances. This is why before WWI started from Gavrilo Princip's gun, people knew that war was coming. It was already being staged.

What I see, is the war being staged. People are seeking to remove opponents (cancel culture), the media is very partisan, big tech is acting as if its role is to take one side, so many things are happening which simply create a bigger divide. When AOC decides to make a list of people to target and ruin, what are these people going to do? Sit back and do nothing? Even the current election crisis was foretold, and the pieces were moved in place prior. Even here in Australia we saw article after article about how Trump would not leave. WHY would they say that?

This doesn't mean I think an actual civil shooting war is inevitable, it isn't. But politically and socially, it seems that at each step, a warlike strategy is being taken. What is happening in the USA is not normal. That riots are going one for months, the degree to which people are seeking to attack each other, that is not normal. Maybe you guys have become so accustomed to it, you don't realise how far from the norm you've deviated.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Fri Nov 13 2020 16:37:00

I am not sure what example where communism worked that the numbskulls think >> they can emulate. There is no place I know of where it has worked and
remained in place and does not involve persistent human rights violations.

Communism has never worked anywhere EVER.

I agree, but I did want to leave myself wiggle room for the person(s) who point out "but China." Yes, they have been Communist for a while but they have only been able to remain so by persistently squashing all opposing views, violating the human rights of the persons who foster those views.

As you pointed out, the supply and demand mechanism does not exist and
those governments have a difficult time emulating it. That said, countries like China and the former USSR used that to their advantage also... forcing intentional shortages, famines, etc., in order to kill off those people
they no longer wanted to deal with.

* SLMR 2.1a * If you believe in telekinesis, please raise my hand.

China is NOT a working example of Communism. It is not a working country, period. Many, many people are seeking to leave China and come to countries like Australia. We have many Chinese here who have wanted to leave China. Ask the Uighurs how China is working out for them.

A working country is one that people want to move to, not move away from. Oppressive dicatorships are not working nation states.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Fri Nov 13 2020 05:57 am

Civilisations rot from the cities out, so I would think that at the start, middle America would not be favourable, but over time things will tilt the other way.

It is clear to me though, that the Democrats don't consider themselves as governing for ALL of America.

It's not going to happen immediatly for obvious reasons regardless of who is sitting behind the resolute desk on January 20th '21. Biden acknowledges that the country will be facing a "dark winter"... he'll be right in the sense that we'll be seeing more systemic shutdowns due to increased COVID-19 cases, millions more workers becoming unemployed every couple of weeks along with civil unrest. Once everything gets sufficently bad, which I am speculating won't happen until summer '21, then we may see very polarising figures enter the fore and speak of subjects such as seperatism.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Arelor on Fri Nov 13 2020 05:59 am

The war I think has already started, its just the shooting hasn't increased to an intensity where it looks like war. Politically though, the USA is in a civil war, or close to one. It is very clear that not only the parties, but institutions, are choosing their sides, and digging in.

The war has been raging on for many years within the government, institutions and the deep state. It's only now that we are seeing it spill onto the streets. The USA has been internally in a state of war for longer than more people care to think.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Fri Nov 13 2020 03:38 pm

Apology of automatically set prices is not new.

The problem is you need to monitor EVERYTHING for it to be plausible in theory _alone_.

Once everything is monitored you can bet the master of the machine will exploit his powers. For example, pricing coffee higher than it should.... what a coincidence that his cousing has a coffee industrial mill...

The biggest problem with a "worker's utopia" is that you're reliant on a benevolant dictator to care for your well-being. Everything will be tracked so I don't think any failure of a future Communist regime will be due to the pricing mechanism. And remember, due to social ownership of the means of production; everything will be controlled by the state. I was speaking to Dennisk about the USA fracturing itself into its component parts and I am of the belief that the radical Left promulgating these ideological views into hard policy may serve as the impetus for such an event.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Fri Nov 13 2020 04:37 pm

I agree, but I did want to leave myself wiggle room for the person(s) who point out "but China." Yes, they have been Communist for a while but they have only been able to remain so by persistently squashing all opposing views, violating the human rights of the persons who foster those views.

As you pointed out, the supply and demand mechanism does not exist and
those governments have a difficult time emulating it. That said, countries like China and the former USSR used that to their advantage also... forcing intentional shortages, famines, etc., in order to kill off those people
they no longer wanted to deal with.

China use a quasi Communist/Capitalist model which allows for property ownership such as structures and buildings, but not the land they're built on. This means that anything can be seized by the CCP at any time. With Communism the bond between the individual and the state has to be stronger than anything else, this is why all dissent is squashed and the punishments meted out are disproportionate as information can spread through the population like a virus erupting in a revolution which ultimately topple the regime.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Arelor to HusTler on Sat Nov 14 2020 05:25 pm

It is prety obvious for outsiders that America is not standing together right now.

yeah but our not standing together is still 100x better than any other country actually standing together.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Sat Nov 14 2020 12:30:20

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Fri Nov 13 2020 05:57 am

Civilisations rot from the cities out, so I would think that at the start, middle America would not be favourable, but over time things will tilt the other way.

It is clear to me though, that the Democrats don't consider themselves as governing for ALL of America.

It's not going to happen immediatly for obvious reasons regardless of who is sitting behind the resolute desk on January 20th '21. Biden acknowledges that the country will be facing a "dark winter"... he'll be right in the sense that we'll be seeing more systemic shutdowns due to increased COVID-19 cases, millions more workers becoming unemployed every couple of weeks along with civil unrest. Once everything gets sufficently bad, which I am speculating won't happen until summer '21, then we may see very polarising figures enter the fore and speak of subjects such as seperatism.

A unified America will slowly become less and less tolerable to people, which will make separatism more and more appealing as time goes on. I'm quite sure powerful forces will not want to let that happens, but there will be increased unrest as social and political forces push against each other.

I think in this decade, we will see a marked decline in the standard of living, as the US moves further and further away from first world nation status.

The real dark scenario is the rise of China it its place, IMO. A frightful scenario.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Nov 14 2020 08:24 pm

A unified America will slowly become less and less tolerable to people, which will make separatism more and more appealing as time goes on. I'm quite sure powerful forces will not want to let that happens, but there will be increased unrest as social and political forces push against each other.

I feel like we've been through that scenario before.. If that's true, it seems like we might be headed toward another civil war. I don't really think that would be necessary, and I'd rather not see that, or see the US break apart.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to HusTler on Sat Nov 14 2020 08:33 pm

The USA is not behaving like a normal country.

maybe they need to start acting like us.

By the way, the USA has been telling many, many other countries how to behave and act, and your crappy ideologies influence the rest of the world heavily, so yes, we have more than a right to weigh in with our opinions.

that's because we have treaties with all kinds of countries that we have to follow. we also give tons and tons and tons of money and resources to good for nothing countries.

when you see the usa go into another country that is because they asked, or someone else asked. the media just doesnt report on it. if we went and did something like that without permission that would start a war.

and if we sneeze and your country gets a cold, maybe your country is too fucking weak.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Nov 14 2020 08:24 pm

A unified America will slowly become less and less tolerable to people, which will make separatism more and more appealing as time goes on. I'm quite sure powerful forces will not want to let that happens, but there will be increased unrest as social and political forces push against each other.

I think in this decade, we will see a marked decline in the standard of living, as the US moves further and further away from first world nation status.

The real dark scenario is the rise of China it its place, IMO. A frightful scenario.

Seperatism in such a scenario would be the natural conclusion were we not accounting for the dark forces at play looking to consolidate their power. There will absolutely be a marked decline in the standard of living, but I don't think it'll be isolated to the USA. I believe all Western nations are going to suffer a palpable decline in quality of life. China ARE going to become the World's superpower within this decade. It won't be long now before the dollar loses its reserve currency status; and when that happens, we can all kiss goodbye to cheap electronic goods from Asia. Also, China are beginning to show imperialistic tendendices and are likely going to make a move on Taiwan which is a country that's massively important in the high-tech supply chain. Deloitte have projected China's GDP in 2030 to be worth 60Tr USD with the USA's GDP at a mere 30Tr USD. Notwithstanding an event such as WWIII taking place, China will naturally become the World's premier superpower.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to HusTler on Sun Nov 15 2020 12:43 pm

citizens. We may disagree (as we always have) but we will never have
another "CIVIL WAR". America will always stand together No Matter
what!

We are educated and have an outside perspective along with a more non-partisan view on the happenings within your country. More importantly, the USA has a central role to play in World events; what happens in your country deeply affects ours.

you do NOT know about the united states because you are NOT in the united states of america. there is no way for you to know.

the only thing you think you know is what th media has shown you and you can never trust the media.
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The real dark scenario is the rise of China it its place, IMO. A frightful sce
ario.

I have seen some Australian news video where they speculate that, with
Biden as the US President, China will "come after" Australia. Is that how
most Australians actually feel? I don't trust China at all.


* SLMR 2.1a * I'll have one brain on drugs with bacon, toast and juice.

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By the way, the USA has been telling many, many other countries how to behave a
d act, and your crappy ideologies influence the rest of the world heavily, so y
s, we have more than a right to weigh in with our opinions.

No doubt! For the record, some of us have watched as we do that and then, later, it backfires on us. People can slam Trump all they want, but that
is one thing he seemed not to get involved in as much as other
administrations -- the business of other countries, that is.

For people who don't know:

-- The US initiallly backed Fidel Castro.
-- The CIA's involvement in the Afghan revolution in the late 1970's/
early '80's likely led to the rise of the Taliban and, possibly, Al Quada.
-- We knew that Saddam Hussein likely had biological and chemical weapons because the US and Britain gave him some, along with other weapons and financial backing, when he was fighting against Iran in the 1980's.
-- We supported Noriega in Panama until he started cozying up with Eastern (Soviet) Europe.
-- Hillary Clinton's original unabridged memoirs included a section where she, as SoS, took credit for helping to topple a regieme in Central America by ignoring them. Once that backfired and became a humanitarian crisis, that section has been left out of subsequent reprintings.
-- Her husband Bill, of course, bombed non-military targets in eastern
Africa in order to get our minds off of his affairs, which likely led to
later attacks against Americans (and others) abroad.
-- Eisenhower, worried that we would become more involved in Vietnam than
we should, warned the US, in his farewell speach, that we needed to beware
of the emerging corporate military machine. While JFK may have partially
paid heed, LBJ ignored this advice entirely and we became mired in a
"conflict" that we could never win.

We had all sorts of other involvements in the Americas that have backfired. We've been involved in some treaties, etc., that Trump got us out of/wanted
to get us out of, because they were lopsided against us (and where when
whoever negotiated them did so).

There are a lot of Americans who wish we'd stay out of the business of
getting involved in the business of other countries.

And, to anyone who asks, no I did not learn this from the media. I learned
it by paying attention in history class, and by studying it on my own after leaving school.


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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sun Nov 15 2020 10:44 am

you do NOT know about the united states because you are NOT in the united states of america. there is no way for you to know.

That is pretty much like people tellign you that you canç t have an opinion on racism because you are not black, or on gay rights because you are not gay.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Arelor to MRO on Sun Nov 15 2020 01:00 pm

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sun Nov 15 2020 10:44 am

you do NOT know about the united states because you are NOT in the
united states of america. there is no way for you to know.

That is pretty much like people tellign you that you can¡ t have an

NO.

it's telling them they can't form an opinion if they no nothing about something other than a lying device like the media tells them.

i dont know what it's like unless i'm in YOUR country, you do not know what it's like unless you are in mine.
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MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to HusTler on Sat Nov 14 2020 08:33 pm

The USA is not behaving like a normal country.

maybe they need to start acting like us.

By the way, the USA has been telling many, many other countries how to behave and act, and your crappy ideologies influence the rest of the world heavily, so yes, we have more than a right to weigh in with our opinions.

that's because we have treaties with all kinds of countries that we
have to follow. we also give tons and tons and tons of money and resources to good for nothing countries.

when you see the usa go into another country that is because they
asked, or someone else asked. the media just doesnt report on it. if
we went and did something like that without permission that would
start a war.

and if we sneeze and your country gets a cold, maybe your country is
too fucking weak. ---

My country dabbled with cozying up to China, which was a big mistake.

Also, I'm not sold 100% on the idea that every U.S. foreign intervention was requested, that the USA goes into these adventures reluctantly after being begged.


... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Nov 14 2020 08:24 pm

A unified America will slowly become less and less tolerable to people, which will make separatism more and more appealing as time goes on. I'm quite sure powerful forces will not want to let that happens, but there will be increased unrest as social and political forces push against each other.

I think in this decade, we will see a marked decline in the standard of living, as the US moves further and further away from first world nation status.

The real dark scenario is the rise of China it its place, IMO. A frightful scenario.

Seperatism in such a scenario would be the natural conclusion were we
not accounting for the dark forces at play looking to consolidate their power. There will absolutely be a marked decline in the standard of living, but I don't think it'll be isolated to the USA. I believe all Western nations are going to suffer a palpable decline in quality of
life. China ARE going to become the World's superpower within this
decade. It won't be long now before the dollar loses its reserve
currency status; and when that happens, we can all kiss goodbye to
cheap electronic goods from Asia. Also, China are beginning to show imperialistic tendendices and are likely going to make a move on Taiwan which is a country that's massively important in the high-tech supply chain. Deloitte have projected China's GDP in 2030 to be worth 60Tr USD with the USA's GDP at a mere 30Tr USD. Notwithstanding an event such as WWIII taking place, China will naturally become the World's premier superpower.

I don't think China will be as successful as people claim. I recall similar talk of Japan, and when Japan reached a US level of development, they staganated. I think China will do the same. People that makes these statements look at financials and the economy, but neglect to consider demographics, and the fact that the Chinese are simply a different people to Americans.

China will be a stagnant totalitarian nightmare. If the US falls, the rest of the world goes with it.

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Dumas Walker wrote to DENNISK <=-

The real dark scenario is the rise of China it its place, IMO. A frightful sce

ario.

I have seen some Australian news video where they speculate that, with Biden as the US President, China will "come after" Australia. Is that
how most Australians actually feel? I don't trust China at all.

I'm not at liberty to speak too freely, but there is a growing scepticism of China. Depending on the news source here you follow, China has been putting pressure on Australia more and more in the last year or so. Definately opinion on China is souring as China is flexing its muscle and making veiled threats.

The mistake was having an economy dependent on China, we placed our balls in their hands, and now they are starting to squeeze. Why Australia thought that wouldn't happen, that a foreign country wouldn't try to take advantage of us, I don't know.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sun Nov 15 2020 10:44 am

you do NOT know about the united states because you are NOT in the united states of america. there is no way for you to know.

the only thing you think you know is what th media has shown you and you can never trust the media.

That's not a good position to take. That's like saying a male doctor cannot give medical advice to a female because he's never lived as one. I said I was educated on the matter, meaning I've done the research. That doesn't necessarily mean I ONLY watch US news. Yes, I don't live in the country, but that doesn't mean I am not right about what's happening. I look at US society, finance, politics and culture... I have a fairly accurate picture of what's going on, and I believe Dennisk and Arelor know what they're talking about too.

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MRO wrote to HusTler <=-

and our last civil war was really about money and about the government
not protecting the southern states from bandits. ---

Wars are always about money and power. Everything else is propaganda designed to get support.

... To err is human. To moo is bovine.
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The mistake was having an economy dependent on China, we placed our balls in >their hands, and now they are starting to squeeze. Why Australia thought that >wouldn't happen, that a foreign country wouldn't try to take advantage of us, I
don't know.

The US and other countries have done that to various extents also. Here in
the US, I think part of it was cheaper labor and part of it was the push
for a more "green environment." If I understand it correctly, the Paris
Accord put fairly strict requirements on most of its members, while giving other countries like China until 2035(?) before those requirements kicked
in.

So, if you can move your production to China where it is cheaper and you
have a few more years to figure out how to stop polluting so much (if you
ever intend to), I guess a shrewed businessperson would make that change.

I would not, which is probably why I will never be in a position to make
such a decision.

We also had a President for 8 years who didn't really like America that
much. Not that the Presidents immediately before him didn't let jobs cross
the Pacific, too.


* SLMR 2.1a * 69, 714, 2112 Sex, drugs, rock'n'roll

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Nov 16 2020 09:12 pm

My country dabbled with cozying up to China, which was a big mistake.

every country kisses china's ass. they get a lot of business from them.

Also, I'm not sold 100% on the idea that every U.S. foreign intervention was requested, that the USA goes into these adventures reluctantly after being begged.

they only go in when asked. otherwise it's an act of war.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Nov 16 2020 09:14 pm

I don't think China will be as successful as people claim. I recall similar talk of Japan, and when Japan reached a US level of development, they staganated. I think China will do the same. People that makes these

you really need to research china.

china dominates.
they have most of the steel industry and about half of other industries.
they are the world's biggest producer of ships, trains, bridges, bridges, highways, computers, cellphones, and tons of other shit.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to MRO on Mon Nov 16 2020 10:47 am

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sun Nov 15 2020 10:44 am

you do NOT know about the united states because you are NOT in the
united states of america. there is no way for you to know.

the only thing you think you know is what th media has shown you and
you can never trust the media.

That's not a good position to take. That's like saying a male doctor

you keep throwing back these bullshit analogies. 'that's like...'


it's like what it is. you do not know what it's like to live in my country and what goes on in my country unless you LIVE here. otherwise all you know is what your media is force feeding you.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to HusTler on Mon Nov 16 2020 10:59 am

60's and early 70's you don't know what messy is. We all got through
that craziness and we'll get through this too. Peace ;-)

I could bitch about my country all day. The spotlight is on America right now though, so there's no point in getting defensive when we point out her flaws.

maybe you need to worry about your own instead of being focused on sensationalism.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dr. What to MRO on Mon Nov 16 2020 10:32 am

MRO wrote to HusTler <=-

and our last civil war was really about money and about the
government not protecting the southern states from bandits. ---

Wars are always about money and power. Everything else is propaganda designed to get support.

it's sad that i've talked to school teachers and college professors who think it was only to end slavery. each of those states signed a declaration stating all the reasons.
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MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Nov 16 2020 09:14 pm

I don't think China will be as successful as people claim. I recall similar talk of Japan, and when Japan reached a US level of development, they staganated. I think China will do the same. People that makes these

you really need to research china.

china dominates.
they have most of the steel industry and about half of other
industries. they are the world's biggest producer of ships, trains, bridges, bridges, highways, computers, cellphones, and tons of other
shit. ---

I know what China has. What I doubt is their ability to be a world leader. Remember, all this was said about Japan.

My thinking is that China will staganate. China has never dominated the world.
The Chinese do not want to. They are making inroads in Africa but the psychology is different and Chinese are just a different people with a different culture, one I don't think can be as innovative and creative.


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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Nov 16 2020 09:14 pm

I don't think China will be as successful as people claim. I recall similar talk of Japan, and when Japan reached a US level of development, they staganated. I think China will do the same. People that makes these statements look at financials and the economy, but neglect to consider demographics, and the fact that the Chinese are simply a different people to Americans.

China will be a stagnant totalitarian nightmare. If the US falls, the rest of the world goes with it.

The problem with China is Communism. Once the US, along with most of the West, falls and becomes unable to purchase Chinese goods, they will have NO CHOICE but to allow the creation of a middle class with enough capital to purchase the good they themselves produce. In such a world, China would be similar to the USA back in the 50/60s. Totalitarianism WILL hold them back though, and without personal freedoms, the Chinese people are going to be unable to take advantage of the global downturn. All the chips are on their side of the table. They have all the infastructure required for a powerful manufacturing economy but once they lose their international buyers, they will have to change their social stance in order to become self-sufficient

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Mon Nov 16 2020 10:49 pm

you keep throwing back these bullshit analogies. 'that's like...'

it's like what it is. you do not know what it's like to live in my country and what goes on in my country unless you LIVE here. otherwise all you know is what your media is force feeding you.

Nonsense. So you're saying that you can't speak about something unless you ARE that something. Sorry, but that's not how the world works. I could say that you know fuck all about 49 states because you live in just one, and each state differs massively from the next. In that case, you don't know much more about the USA than I do.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Dennisk on Mon Nov 16 2020 10:47 pm

I don't think China will be as successful as people claim. I recall
similar talk of Japan, and when Japan reached a US level of
development, they staganated. I think China will do the same. People
that makes these

you really need to research china.

china dominates.
they have most of the steel industry and about half of other industries. they are the world's biggest producer of ships, trains, bridges, bridges, highways, computers, cellphones, and tons of other shit. ---

Yep, and I'm not really surprised. China has one of the biggest populations of any country on the planet, so they have a large pool of workers to produce a lot of things. A while ago, one thing I saw that I thought was interesting was a video of a (pretty much) fully automated shipping container terminal that can take large boxes of freight and automatically sort them based on where they need to go, place them on ships, and take them from incoming ships, using robotic arms & transport vehicles & such.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to MRO on Tue Nov 17 2020 09:39 pm

My thinking is that China will staganate. China has never dominated the world.

they are dominating the world right now.

not only that, but they just fucked up the whole world with covid-19 too
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to MRO on Tue Nov 17 2020 11:17 am

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Mon Nov 16 2020 10:49 pm

you keep throwing back these bullshit analogies. 'that's like...'

it's like what it is. you do not know what it's like to live in my
country and what goes on in my country unless you LIVE here. otherwise
all you know is what your media is force feeding you.

Nonsense. So you're saying that you can't speak about something unless you ARE that something. Sorry, but that's not how the world works. I could say

that's how experience and knowlege work.

you need a reliable source to know about something.

that you know fuck all about 49 states because you live in just one, and each state differs massively from the next. In that case, you don't know much more about the USA than I do.

you can split hairs if you want.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Nightfox to MRO on Tue Nov 17 2020 12:21 pm

Yep, and I'm not really surprised. China has one of the biggest populations of any country on the planet, so they have a large pool of workers to produce a lot of things. A while ago, one thing I saw that I thought was interesting was a video of a (pretty much) fully automated shipping container terminal that can take large boxes of freight and automatically sort them based on where they need to go, place them on ships, and take them from incoming ships, using robotic arms & transport vehicles & such.

what they did was pretty much say "okay boys. things arent working out. we are going to rebuild everything from the ground up", and they did.

they restructured their industries and while other countries were sitting back doing nothing, china surpassed them.
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-=[ On 11-10-20 12:39, Tracker1 wrote to Argelian below: ]=-
-=[ Re: Re: Who WON?? ]=-

Hi Tracker1!

I'm not a fan of Trump, and if the D's had put up someone that wasn't an insider chrony for 5 decades in politics with a grifter as a running
mate, I might have more hope right now.

I also find it *really* hard to support anyone in a political party that doesn't distance itself and includes prominent leaders embracing and pushing for Marxist-style socialism.

Open dialog is what people need the most in life. You have your political opinions and I have my own but that doesn't mean we can't sit at the table together discussing our own viewpoints. I will stand by what I stated earlier, Trump's values align most with my values and thats whom I would have voted for if I was an American citizen, instead I'm Canadian.

Cheers,
Bryan
bhandfield(at)me(dot)com

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Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Nov 16 2020 09:14 pm

I don't think China will be as successful as people claim. I recall similar talk of Japan, and when Japan reached a US level of development, they staganated. I think China will do the same. People that makes these statements look at financials and the economy, but neglect to consider demographics, and the fact that the Chinese are simply a different people to Americans.

China will be a stagnant totalitarian nightmare. If the US falls, the rest of the world goes with it.

The problem with China is Communism. Once the US, along with most of
the West, falls and becomes unable to purchase Chinese goods, they will have NO CHOICE but to allow the creation of a middle class with enough capital to purchase the good they themselves produce. In such a world, China would be similar to the USA back in the 50/60s. Totalitarianism
WILL hold them back though, and without personal freedoms, the Chinese people are going to be unable to take advantage of the global downturn. All the chips are on their side of the table. They have all the infastructure required for a powerful manufacturing economy but once
they lose their international buyers, they will have to change their social stance in order to become self-sufficient

That is where I think things will fall apart. China does have the capability, physically, to create a strong middle class, but I suspect they won't be able to adapt to the social and political change that is required. I think the West adapts well to new situations, and is able to go through revolutions and keep on running. I'm not sure that China can adapt politically to the new reality it is creating materially. It isn't simply a matter of increased production, you need new IDEAS to make it work. America could do this, with many out of the box thinkers, new ideas (not all good, and today, most not good) permeating through. I just don't see that capability in China.

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MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to MRO on Tue Nov 17 2020 09:39 pm

My thinking is that China will staganate. China has never dominated the world.

they are dominating the world right now.

not only that, but they just fucked up the whole world with covid-19
too ---

No, the USA has far more dominance and sway than China. Militarily, politically, economically and culturally. These two powers are meeting each other, but a China dominated world (if it happens), will be a stagnant one.


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MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

it's sad that i've talked to school teachers and college professors who think it was only to end slavery. each of those states signed a declaration stating all the reasons. ---

For a long time, mostly because of our poor education system, I thought the same about the civil war too. The reasons were far more complex. I can understand simplyifying things for 5th graders, but by the time we got to
high school, the complex reasons would be easily understandable.

But the Civil War was pretty much about States rights vs. Federal Gov't. Can the Fed impose rules upon the states? Well, the Fed won and the answer
is a qualified "yes."

Slavery, etc. were all just excuses to justify why Group-A should have power and not Group-B.

The funny thing is that we are still fighting that war. The groups involved are the same.


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Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-

My thinking is that China will staganate. China has never dominated
the world.
The Chinese do not want to.

I have a disagree with that. I believe that the Chinese do want to.

But like all socialist governments, they stifle their own ability to do so. Socialists believe that the people in charge are smart enough to figure it
all out and history has proven that completely wrong.


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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to MRO on Wed Nov 18 2020 10:23 pm

MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to MRO on Tue Nov 17 2020 09:39 pm

My thinking is that China will staganate. China has never dominated
the world.

they are dominating the world right now.

not only that, but they just fucked up the whole world with covid-19
too ---

No, the USA has far more dominance and sway than China. Militarily, politically, economically and culturally. These two powers are meeting each other, but a China dominated world (if it happens), will be a stagnant one.

you keep thinking that
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Tue Nov 17 2020 07:24 pm

that you know fuck all about 49 states because you live in just one, and each state differs massively from the next. In that case, you don't know much more about the USA than I do.

you can split hairs if you want.

Right, so we are all varying degrees of ignorant then. We all have opinions though and are free to say what we like, whether we are right or wrong.

---
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Nov 18 2020 10:22 pm

That is where I think things will fall apart. China does have the capability, physically, to create a strong middle class, but I suspect they won't be able to adapt to the social and political change that is required. I think the West adapts well to new situations, and is able to go through revolutions and keep on running. I'm not sure that China can adapt politically to the new reality it is creating materially. It isn't simply a matter of increased production, you need new IDEAS to make it work. America could do this, with many out of the box thinkers, new ideas (not all good, and today, most not good) permeating through. I just don't see that capability in China.

It wouldn't surprise me, if anything China are getting tighter with their government apparatus rather than more lenient. I don't know if the CCP have it in them to let go of all that power and relax their laws regarding property rights, etc... it'll be an interesting number of years because once China's exports run dry, they'll be up shit creek without a paddle too. Uncertain times ahead...

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to MRO on Thu Nov 19 2020 01:35 am

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Tue Nov 17 2020 07:24 pm

that you know fuck all about 49 states because you live in just
one, and each state differs massively from the next. In that case,
you don't know much more about the USA than I do.

you can split hairs if you want.

Right, so we are all varying degrees of ignorant then. We all have opinions though and are free to say what we like, whether we are right or wrong.

there you go splitting hairs even more.

keep going until you work your way down to the atomic level.
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Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-

Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-

My thinking is that China will staganate. China has never dominated
the world.
The Chinese do not want to.

I have a disagree with that. I believe that the Chinese do want to.

But like all socialist governments, they stifle their own ability to do so. Socialists believe that the people in charge are smart enough to figure it all out and history has proven that completely wrong.

Historically they haven't done so. THEY, not just the leader.

Time will tell, but I'm very sceptical that China will lead the world the way the US does. They will be an insular power, perhaps having power over their immediate region (including Australia) but not being the cultural powerhouse that the USA is.

The world is built on Western ideas and technology.

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Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Nov 18 2020 10:22 pm

That is where I think things will fall apart. China does have the capability, physically, to create a strong middle class, but I suspect they won't be able to adapt to the social and political change that is required. I think the West adapts well to new situations, and is able to go through revolutions and keep on running. I'm not sure that China can adapt politically to the new reality it is creating materially. It isn't simply a matter of increased production, you need new IDEAS to make it work. America could do this, with many out of the box thinkers, new ideas (not all good, and today, most not good) permeating through. I just don't see that capability in China.

It wouldn't surprise me, if anything China are getting tighter with
their government apparatus rather than more lenient. I don't know if
the CCP have it in them to let go of all that power and relax their
laws regarding property rights, etc... it'll be an interesting number
of years because once China's exports run dry, they'll be up shit creek without a paddle too. Uncertain times ahead...

They have freed the market to some degree, which is why their economy has grown so much. Though when you grow from nothing, the growth figures are always high.

People have a very economy-centric view of things. They think that just having a big economy makes you a power. There are a lot of other subtle characteristics that make a country a power. My argument is that economy alone won't do it

I'm not an expert on China, but we do have significant Chinese presence in Australia. Without the West, they would not be where they are now.

A Chinese led world will stagnate. Absolutely.

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But the Civil War was pretty much about States rights vs. Federal Gov't. Can >the Fed impose rules upon the states? Well, the Fed won and the answer
is a qualified "yes."

By force they could.


* SLMR 2.1a * Must Go - Some Jehovahs witnesses need shouting at.

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On 11/10/2020 5:02 PM, Argelian wrote:

I'm not a fan of Trump, and if the D's had put up someone that wasn't an
insider chrony for 5 decades in politics with a grifter as a running
mate, I might have more hope right now.

I also find it *really* hard to support anyone in a political party that
doesn't distance itself and includes prominent leaders embracing and
pushing for Marxist-style socialism.

Open dialog is what people need the most in life. You have your political opinions and I have my own but that doesn't mean we can't sit at the table together discussing our own viewpoints. I will stand by what I stated earlier,
Trump's values align most with my values and thats whom I would have voted for
if I was an American citizen, instead I'm Canadian.

I tend to agree... I think that friction, and compromise are necessary
and best for politics. You need to find resolutions that nobody is
really completely happy with. The only thing more scary than where
culture stops communication, cancelation/censorship expand etc. Is where
the insiders of the left and right agree (largely on foreign warfare and corporatist shilling).

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Nov 19 2020 09:12 pm

They have freed the market to some degree, which is why their economy has grown so much. Though when you grow from nothing, the growth figures are always high.

People have a very economy-centric view of things. They think that just having a big economy makes you a power. There are a lot of other subtle characteristics that make a country a power. My argument is that economy alone won't do it

I'm not an expert on China, but we do have significant Chinese presence in Australia. Without the West, they would not be where they are now.

A Chinese led world will stagnate. Absolutely.

China will become the World's premier superpower due to the USA's decline and fall. I agree that they'll have A LOT less cultural influence than America has had in the past. Again, it depends on what happens to our own cultures over the next couple of years as the economic collapse will result in a paradigm shift. Our decisions regarding COVID have ravaged our economies and it'll take many years to rebuild what we've lost.

Their military is behind the USA's but as far as I can tell, they're investing a lot more in high tech war machines with a focus on unmanned vehicles and AI. I don't doubt that by the end of the decade, they will have the most powerful military.

Either way, I'd like to see the USA recover quickly to reclaim its former position. With Biden in charge, I can't see that happening as he's absolutely committed to green energy and transforming the economic system at its foundational level. It's a big gamble as it's going to place the USA into trillions of more debt (it's already reached 27Tr USD... 27 million million dollars, like, what the fuck?) and we have no idea if it'll be efficent enough to produce the desired results.

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Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Nov 19 2020 09:12 pm

They have freed the market to some degree, which is why their economy has grown so much. Though when you grow from nothing, the growth figures are always high.

People have a very economy-centric view of things. They think that just having a big economy makes you a power. There are a lot of other subtle characteristics that make a country a power. My argument is that economy alone won't do it

I'm not an expert on China, but we do have significant Chinese presence in Australia. Without the West, they would not be where they are now.

A Chinese led world will stagnate. Absolutely.

China will become the World's premier superpower due to the USA's
decline and fall. I agree that they'll have A LOT less cultural
influence than America has had in the past. Again, it depends on what happens to our own cultures over the next couple of years as the
economic collapse will result in a paradigm shift. Our decisions
regarding COVID have ravaged our economies and it'll take many years to rebuild what we've lost.

Their military is behind the USA's but as far as I can tell, they're investing a lot more in high tech war machines with a focus on unmanned vehicles and AI. I don't doubt that by the end of the decade, they will have the most powerful military.

Either way, I'd like to see the USA recover quickly to reclaim its
former position. With Biden in charge, I can't see that happening as
he's absolutely committed to green energy and transforming the economic system at its foundational level. It's a big gamble as it's going to place the USA into trillions of more debt (it's already reached 27Tr USD... 27 million million dollars, like, what the fuck?) and we have no idea if it'll be efficent enough to produce the desired results.

Do you think in 2050 that China will project the same cultural and
political influence that the USA did in 1985? Do you think the world
will take their cues, and be influenced by China, wanting to be China,
in the same way?

Think about all the developments we take for granted, the car, plane,
computers and computing software and systems, much science and
technology, democracy, liberty, the standard world language, English,
all from the West. China has one FIFTH of the worlds population, but
doesn't have that influence. When the West invented the printing press,
it caused a revolution, not just in printing, but in religion and
ideology, it changed us completely. China didn't undergo such a change.

That is the difference. China may end up having power, and military
control, but it won't be a world-shaper the way that Britain or the US,
or even Greece and Rome was. They try to sell the idea that Australia
should be part of Asia here, but it is only opportunistic business
leaders who want to sell us out that say that. It won't happen. China
only influences "Chinese Living Abroad". It is an insular nation.

We are exposed to China a lot in Australia, and China is just a
precense, maybe a bully, but not a leader, not a model. Their empire
won't last nearly as long, hell, they are gaining more and more
opposition and movement against them, and they haven't even started.




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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Nov 08 2020 12:42 am

Do you think in 2050 that China will project the same cultural and
political influence that the USA did in 1985? Do you think the world
will take their cues, and be influenced by China, wanting to be China,
in the same way?

Think about all the developments we take for granted, the car, plane, computers and computing software and systems, much science and
technology, democracy, liberty, the standard world language, English,
all from the West. China has one FIFTH of the worlds population, but doesn't have that influence. When the West invented the printing press,
it caused a revolution, not just in printing, but in religion and
ideology, it changed us completely. China didn't undergo such a change.

That is the difference. China may end up having power, and military control, but it won't be a world-shaper the way that Britain or the US,
or even Greece and Rome was. They try to sell the idea that Australia should be part of Asia here, but it is only opportunistic business
leaders who want to sell us out that say that. It won't happen. China
only influences "Chinese Living Abroad". It is an insular nation.

We are exposed to China a lot in Australia, and China is just a
precense, maybe a bully, but not a leader, not a model. Their empire
won't last nearly as long, hell, they are gaining more and more
opposition and movement against them, and they haven't even started.

Absent in China are any revolutions that the West had to undergo in the last 5 centuries. Their top down stranglehold on the population is both a strength and a weakness though. I think they have enough steam to bully other nations for a considerable length of time, perhaps for the remainder of my natural lifetime. They are an example of an ordered society, one which has underwent severe social conditioning and control. Everyone seems to have a place and something to contribute to society. Do you not think that this model could be imported as a template for Western nations?

Scholars say that Western culture is dying. This means that it'll be replaced with something else... the question is - what?

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Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Nov 08 2020 12:42 am

Do you think in 2050 that China will project the same cultural and
political influence that the USA did in 1985? Do you think the world
will take their cues, and be influenced by China, wanting to be China,
in the same way?

Think about all the developments we take for granted, the car, plane, computers and computing software and systems, much science and
technology, democracy, liberty, the standard world language, English,
all from the West. China has one FIFTH of the worlds population, but doesn't have that influence. When the West invented the printing press,
it caused a revolution, not just in printing, but in religion and
ideology, it changed us completely. China didn't undergo such a change.

That is the difference. China may end up having power, and military control, but it won't be a world-shaper the way that Britain or the US,
or even Greece and Rome was. They try to sell the idea that Australia should be part of Asia here, but it is only opportunistic business
leaders who want to sell us out that say that. It won't happen. China
only influences "Chinese Living Abroad". It is an insular nation.

We are exposed to China a lot in Australia, and China is just a
precense, maybe a bully, but not a leader, not a model. Their empire
won't last nearly as long, hell, they are gaining more and more
opposition and movement against them, and they haven't even started.

Absent in China are any revolutions that the West had to undergo in the last 5 centuries. Their top down stranglehold on the population is both
a strength and a weakness though. I think they have enough steam to
bully other nations for a considerable length of time, perhaps for the remainder of my natural lifetime. They are an example of an ordered society, one which has underwent severe social conditioning and
control. Everyone seems to have a place and something to contribute to society. Do you not think that this model could be imported as a
template for Western nations?

Scholars say that Western culture is dying. This means that it'll be replaced with something else... the question is - what?

I think Western leaders have tried, and failed. I believe there are differences between the East and West, and this is one of the ways it manifests itself. Europe has fewer people than China, yet is diverse, divided, difficult to control. You could take over maybe a few countries, but you would be stopped by another strong country, and another strong leader. China on the other hand can run under one system, because there is so little opposition, comparitively speaking. If Xi Xinping was in Europe, there would be another equal to face him. The question is, is the Chinese mentality a product of their systems, or are their systems a product of their mentality? I suspect the latter. Social conditioning and conformity works because of the population. China today isn't vastly different to China in the past in many ways. Sure, there have been rebellions, but China today is still unified. European Communism on the other hand fell apart. How long would Hitler have controlled Europe without coming undone? Not for generations. Even the Romans had trouble with the Barbarians up north. The Ottomans and Mongols were stopped at Vienna.

Is there a growing fascist presence in the USA? Absolutely. But I can't imagine it taking over the way that the Chinese version did, not without the country breaking apart, and some form of dissolution of the USA into its component parts. Europe may be more prone to fascism (as they have historically been, which is why the USA is really the core of Western Civilisation). This is why I think China is in actuality weak, as paradoxical as it sounds. The reason that China can be a quasi-totalitarian state with over 1 billion people working in lockstep is precisely because it lacks the dynamism within the people which propels civilisation forward.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Nov 22 2020 09:13 pm

I think Western leaders have tried, and failed. I believe there are differences between the East and West, and this is one of the ways it manifests itself. Europe has fewer people than China, yet is diverse, divided, difficult to control. You could take over maybe a few countries, but you would be stopped by another strong country, and another strong leader. China on the other hand can run under one system, because there is so little opposition, comparitively speaking. If Xi Xinping was in Europe, there would be another equal to face him. The question is, is the Chinese mentality a product of their systems, or are their systems a product of their mentality? I suspect the latter. Social conditioning and conformity works because of the population. China today isn't vastly different to China in the past in many ways. Sure, there have been rebellions, but China today is still unified. European Communism on the other hand fell apart. How long would Hitler have controlled Europe without coming undone? Not for generations. Even the Romans had trouble with the Barbarians up north. The Ottomans and Mongols were stopped at Vienna.

Is there a growing fascist presence in the USA? Absolutely. But I can't imagine it taking over the way that the Chinese version did, not without the country breaking apart, and some form of dissolution of the USA into its component parts. Europe may be more prone to fascism (as they have historically been, which is why the USA is really the core of Western Civilisation). This is why I think China is in actuality weak, as paradoxical as it sounds. The reason that China can be a quasi-totalitarian state with over 1 billion people working in lockstep is precisely because it lacks the dynamism within the people which propels civilisation forward.

I guess it's only conjecture but you may be correct about the mentality aspect. Even Japan, which is capitalistic in nature, appears more ordered than most Western nations.

I predict that the upcoming economic downturn will be severe enough to result in such a high level of volatility and instability that the people are going to DEMAND a more ordered and structured society. I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if I saw the police gradually becoming more and more authoritarian as our way of life descends into complete disarray. When there's a real chance of violence erupting in the streets whenever you're out and there's stories of home invasions and thefts, vandalisms and muggings on the rise, etc... freedom loses its importance in favour of security. We could realistically end up with a system much like China's... the only difference is that once the dust has settled and everything returns to a state of normality, would we still tolerate government oppression?

Europe is also a tough cookie to crack as it's many different nations and cultures rolled up into a relatively small geographical area. The Western nations of Europe are also culturally and historically distinct from the Eastern Slavonic states.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Mon Nov 23 2020 05:33 pm

I predict that the upcoming economic downturn will be severe enough to resul in such a high level of volatility and instability that the people are going DEMAND a more ordered and structured society. I genuinely wouldn't be surpri if I saw the police gradually becoming more and more authoritarian as our wa of life descends into complete disarray. When there's a real chance of viole erupting in the streets whenever you're out and there's stories of home invasions and thefts, vandalisms and muggings on the rise, etc... freedom lo its importance in favour of security. We could realistically end up with a system much like China's... the only difference is that once the dust has settled and everything returns to a state of normality, would we still toler government oppression?

That sounds like Venezuela to me.

Appoint a dear leader to save us all during a time of emergency. Then the leader screws everybody up and squeezes the country dry.

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Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Nov 22 2020 09:13 pm

I think Western leaders have tried, and failed. I believe there are differences between the East and West, and this is one of the ways it manifests itself. Europe has fewer people than China, yet is diverse, divided, difficult to control. You could take over maybe a few countries, but you would be stopped by another strong country, and another strong leader. China on the other hand can run under one system, because there is so little opposition, comparitively speaking. If Xi Xinping was in Europe, there would be another equal to face him. The question is, is the Chinese mentality a product of their systems, or are their systems a product of their mentality? I suspect the latter. Social conditioning and conformity works because of the population. China today isn't vastly different to China in the past in many ways. Sure, there have been rebellions, but China today is still unified. European Communism on the other hand fell apart. How long would Hitler have controlled Europe without coming undone? Not for generations. Even the Romans had trouble with the Barbarians up north. The Ottomans and Mongols were stopped at Vienna.

Is there a growing fascist presence in the USA? Absolutely. But I can't imagine it taking over the way that the Chinese version did, not without the country breaking apart, and some form of dissolution of the USA into its component parts. Europe may be more prone to fascism (as they have historically been, which is why the USA is really the core of Western Civilisation). This is why I think China is in actuality weak, as paradoxical as it sounds. The reason that China can be a quasi-totalitarian state with over 1 billion people working in lockstep is precisely because it lacks the dynamism within the people which propels civilisation forward.

I guess it's only conjecture but you may be correct about the mentality aspect. Even Japan, which is capitalistic in nature, appears more
ordered than most Western nations.

I predict that the upcoming economic downturn will be severe enough to result in such a high level of volatility and instability that the
people are going to DEMAND a more ordered and structured society. I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if I saw the police gradually becoming more and more authoritarian as our way of life descends into complete disarray. When there's a real chance of violence erupting in the
streets whenever you're out and there's stories of home invasions and thefts, vandalisms and muggings on the rise, etc... freedom loses its importance in favour of security. We could realistically end up with a system much like China's... the only difference is that once the dust
has settled and everything returns to a state of normality, would we
still tolerate government oppression?

Europe is also a tough cookie to crack as it's many different nations
and cultures rolled up into a relatively small geographical area. The Western nations of Europe are also culturally and historically distinct from the Eastern Slavonic states.

I vaguely remember when Japan was to be the next big thing. There are many references in the 1980's about Japan in the near future being a major business power. Then when they reached the level of the US, they stagnated. Japan went from a lost decade, to a lost generation.

I agree with you that we will become more authoritarian. We have FORGOTTEN the lessons of history. Much of modern Western history has been a painful lesson on the importance of freedom and of not having authority reign supreme. The USA was the epitome of the Western project IMO. Because we have forgotten why we have freedom of speech, limitation on power, and such, we are reverting to a more 'primal' state which doesn't bode well. It is a false sense of safety. Authoritarian regimes kill more people. We gave individuals freedom of thought, speech, movement and agency to avoid the mass violence that could otherwise occur. People who are arguing for more restrictions on freedom, against individual liberty are creating a very dangerous future.

Dark times ahead, indeed.

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Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-

That sounds like Venezuela to me.

Appoint a dear leader to save us all during a time of emergency. Then
the leader screws everybody up and squeezes the country dry.

Sound like California too. Hmmm... Is there something in common? 8)


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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Mon Nov 23 2020 04:55 pm

That sounds like Venezuela to me.

Appoint a dear leader to save us all during a time of emergency. Then the leader screws everybody up and squeezes the country dry.

--

That's the danger. We are not a special group of people who are exempt from these circumstances by virtue of being born into The First World.

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Europe is also a tough cookie to crack as it's many different nations and cultures rolled up into a relatively small geographical area. The Western nations of Europe are also culturally and historically distinct from the Eastern Slavonic states.

Something I don't think that Europeans realize about the United States is
that it, too, has areas that are culturally and at least recent-historically distinct.

Those distinctions may not necessarly follow state boundaries, but they do follow regional ones. TV and the Internet may have made that less so, but
it is so. The only time the US seems to have the same aims is when we are
at war with someone. Let too much time without a war pass and we start fighting with each other.


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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Tue Nov 24 2020 05:02 pm

Something I don't think that Europeans realize about the United States is that it, too, has areas that are culturally and at least recent-historically distinct.

Those distinctions may not necessarly follow state boundaries, but they do follow regional ones. TV and the Internet may have made that less so, but it is so. The only time the US seems to have the same aims is when we are at war with someone. Let too much time without a war pass and we start fighting with each other.

Yes, I agree that the US is diverse enough and is large enough to from a geographic perspective to produce culturally distinct regions. It's obviously deeper in Europe though as the Slavonic states have their own languages and a completely seperate culture (literature, entertainment, cuisine...etc,) which is no where near as Americanised as our own.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Dumas Walker on Wed Nov 25 2020 10:11 am

obviously deeper in Europe though as the Slavonic states have their own languages and a completely seperate culture (literature, entertainment, cuisine...etc,) which is no where near as Americanised as our own.

usa has separate cutures. usa was a melting pot.
a lot of immigrants dont leave behind their culture.

on my mom's side those fuckers are american gypsies. you wouldnt be understand their language and some of them pretty much exist out of normal society.

the usa is probably the most diverse country on the planet.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Wed Nov 25 2020 02:49 pm

obviously deeper in Europe though as the Slavonic states have their own languages and a completely seperate culture (literature, entertainment, cuisine...etc,) which is no where near as Americanised as our own.

usa has separate cutures. usa was a melting pot.
a lot of immigrants dont leave behind their culture.

on my mom's side those fuckers are american gypsies. you wouldnt be understand their language and some of them pretty much exist out of normal society.

the usa is probably the most diverse country on the planet.

I would agree that the USA is the most diverse nation on the planet in relation to being a cultural melting pot. There are not many groups that are not represented in the US populous.

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Yes, I agree that the US is diverse enough and is large enough to from a geographic perspective to produce culturally distinct regions. It's obviously deeper in Europe though as the Slavonic states have their own languages and a completely seperate culture (literature, entertainment, cuisine...etc,) which is no where near as Americanised as our own.

That is true. We only have pockets of distinctions as deep as that,
and many of them are disappearing/have disappeared in the information age.


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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Thu Nov 26 2020 09:48 am

That is true. We only have pockets of distinctions as deep as that,
and many of them are disappearing/have disappeared in the information age.

We in the UK are much more culturally aligned with our American cousins than we are with Eastern Europeans. I really don't think there's much that seperates us over here than with yourselves.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to Dumas Walker on Fri Nov 27 2020 03:42 pm

We in the UK are much more culturally aligned with our American cousins than we are with Eastern Europeans. I really don't think there's much that seperates us over here than with yourselves.

we arent cousins and we arent that same.
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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Fri Nov 27 2020 04:22 pm

we arent cousins and we arent that same.

The social kindship between the Americans and the British has existed through most of the duration of US history, and was remarked upon by some of the Founders of the United States soon after the Revolutionary War - particularly the first US Ambassador to the United Kingdom, John Adams.

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to MRO on Tue Dec 01 2020 01:59 am

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Fri Nov 27 2020 04:22 pm

we arent cousins and we arent that same.

The social kindship between the Americans and the British has existed through most of the duration of US history, and was remarked upon by some of the Founders of the United States soon after the Revolutionary War - particularly the first US Ambassador to the United Kingdom, John Adams.

is that what wikipedia told you
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Andeddu wrote to MRO <=-

we arent cousins and we arent that same.

The social kindship between the Americans and the British has
existed through most of the duration of US history, and was
remarked upon by some of the Founders of the United States soon
after the Revolutionary War - particularly the first US
Ambassador to the United Kingdom, John Adams.

Right. Then maybe you'll understand this:

Bugger off, mate.



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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Tue Dec 01 2020 11:46 am

Right. Then maybe you'll understand this:

Bugger off, mate.

Ohh, here he is in another one of my posts. I have an angry man following me around the internet again...

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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to HusTler on Thu Dec 03 2020 05:58 pm

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: HusTler to Anduddu on Thu Dec 03 2020 07:46 am

The "duration of US history" implies the future. I personally don't
like British people and feel no kindship what so ever.

That's you though. Past Presidents and Prime Ministers have spoken of our 'special relationship'... I believe even Trump echoed similar sentiment

well the UK is the usa's bitch. so if you want to call it a special relationship, go ahead. more like special as in mentally retarded.
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MRO wrote to Andeddu <=-

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: Andeddu to HusTler on Thu Dec 03 2020 05:58 pm

Re: Re: Who WON??
By: HusTler to Anduddu on Thu Dec 03 2020 07:46 am

The "duration of US history" implies the future. I personally don't
like British people and feel no kindship what so ever.

That's you though. Past Presidents and Prime Ministers have spoken of our 'special relationship'... I believe even Trump echoed similar sentiment

well the UK is the usa's bitch. so if you want to call it a special relationship, go ahead. more like special as in mentally retarded.

The UK is just a bitch. Period. Imagine a country run by those shrill Politically Correct, nanny-state loving, admonishing control freak
teachers, and you have England.



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Re: Re: Who WON??
By: MRO to Andeddu on Thu Dec 03 2020 07:55 pm

The "duration of US history" implies the future. I personally don't
like British people and feel no kindship what so ever.

That's you though. Past Presidents and Prime Ministers have spoken of our 'special relationship'... I believe even Trump echoed similar sentiment

well the UK is the usa's bitch. so if you want to call it a special relationship, go ahead. more like special as in mentally retarded.

That's partially true and it's a big criticism I have of the UK's gutless government. Given our history, we should never be kowtowing to the US. Tony Blair, in particular, has a lot to answer for as he was the first PM to show true subservience in the face of international diplomacy.

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