For those who were saying prior to the election that there is no voter fraud, mail in ballots are totally legit and everyone who suggests otherwise is a right wing conspiracy theorist, here it is.

https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/04/yes-democrats-are-trying-to-steal-the-elec tion-in-michigan-wisconsin-and-pennsylvania/?fbclid=IwAR10DI9WOuW8BEU5OYV5Df7fM M6MlnBzdcyvgUKLApTCHTaqH4CK-x5fD_A

Caught in the fucking act. Are you seriously going to claim that this is some made up conspiracy? Trump in the lead in multiple states when the sun set on election day and then come morning oh we found and processed over 100,000 Biden ballots and zero Trump ballots. On Tuesday night in Pennsylvania Trump was up 600,000 votes and since then in the last two days they have found half a
million mail in Biden votes, and next to no Trump votes. In any state that is fairly split if you grab a stack of ballots you're not going to find 100 votes for one candidate and zero for the other. The odds of that happening are astronomical.

Protip: if you want to do something illegal and not draw attention to yourself and get caught at least make the story believable.

Immortal


... Anyone who can walk to the welfare office can walk to work.

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■ Synchronet ■ Immortal's Domain

Immortal wrote to All <=-

For those who were saying prior to the election that there is no voter fraud, mail in ballots are totally legit and everyone who suggests otherwise is a right wing conspiracy theorist, here it is.

https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/04/yes-democrats-are-trying-to-steal-t he-elec tion-in-michigan-wisconsin-and-pennsylvania/?fbclid=IwAR10DI9WOuW8BEU5OY V5Df7fM M6MlnBzdcyvgUKLApTCHTaqH4CK-x5fD_A

Caught in the fucking act. Are you seriously going to claim that this
is some made up conspiracy? Trump in the lead in multiple states when
the sun set on election day and then come morning oh we found and processed over 100,000 Biden ballots and zero Trump ballots. On
Tuesday night in Pennsylvania Trump was up 600,000 votes and since then
in the last two days they have found half a million mail in Biden
votes, and next to no Trump votes. In any state that is fairly split
if you grab a stack of ballots you're not going to find 100 votes for
one candidate and zero for the other. The odds of that happening are astronomical.

Protip: if you want to do something illegal and not draw attention to yourself and get caught at least make the story believable.

Immortal

I'm not saying that there was fraud, but I find the argument that there couldn't have been odd. As if somehow, despite ALL that has actually been done against Trump, people who thought that they could get away with messing with the ballots wouldn't do it, and respect the vote of Trump supporters?


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On 11/5/2020 5:00 PM, Immortal wrote:

For those who were saying prior to the election that there is no voter fraud, mail in ballots are totally legit and everyone who suggests otherwise is a right wing conspiracy theorist, here it is.

...

Protip: if you want to do something illegal and not draw attention to yourself and get caught at least make the story believable.

Just want to mention, that this type of fraud isn't exclusive to mail in ballots... the fact is it has been an issue throughout the history of
the country and isn't new. It's also not like it's as widespread or as limited as some think.

I do think there's been some fishy things in a few states/cities and
predicted as much. There's also issues with comingling (shuffling)
ballots as well as custody issues for some drop off collections.

I don't know that much will come out from any of the lawsuits though.
There will definitely be some recounts in several close states.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

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On 11/6/2020 8:38 PM, Dennisk wrote:

I'm not saying that there was fraud, but I find the argument that there couldn't have been odd. As if somehow, despite ALL that has actually been done
against Trump, people who thought that they could get away with messing with the ballots wouldn't do it, and respect the vote of Trump supporters?

Oh, there's definitely fraud... any system can/will likely have fraud.
It's a matter of how much of it, where and if it affected the outcome.
the outcome.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

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Your vote counts. Their votes count. Lets move on...

I don't think there was enough fraud or glitches to change the results. If there is some proof (like there really were votes casts by dead people, or
some software package really did glitch and change votes), they should investigate to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I have found that voters who "don't care about fraud" seem to believe that
it will always benefit their side. My thinking is that whoever has figured
out how to, say, cast dead people votes and not get caught might sell their skills to the highest bidder. If that highest bidder turns out to be the
other side, I bet those "don't care" folks start caring. They sure did 4
years ago when they thought it was the Russians causing it.


* SLMR 2.1a * Do unto others BEFORE they do unto YOU.

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On 09 Nov 2020, Dumas Walker said the following...

Your vote counts. Their votes count. Lets move on...

I don't think there was enough fraud or glitches to change the results. Ifthere is some proof (like there really were votes casts by dead
people, orsome software package really did glitch and change votes),
they shouldinvestigate to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I have found that voters who "don't care about fraud" seem to believe thatit will always benefit their side. My thinking is that whoever has figuredout how to, say, cast dead people votes and not get caught might sell theirskills to the highest bidder. If that highest bidder turns
out to be theother side, I bet those "don't care" folks start caring. They sure did 4years ago when they thought it was the Russians causing
it.

So... I agree with everything you posted; however, the one part that I'd reiterate is- there WAS votes cast by dead people... there was glitchy software. My stance, however, is that the amount of such wasn't any thing new, or different than any other voting year - well... POSSIBLY there was a bit more, simply because of the nature of... how much of that happens/is allowed to happen because of increases voting by mail. So sure; I'm ok with investigating THAT... and then understanding if or if not voting by mail pushes it to a point that voting by mail doesn't make sense, or is dangerous.....

But; I don't think that Trump is going to sway the results at all. I think that Biden won THIS election - I am certainly interested in finding out if voting by mailbrought enough issues to be deemed a bad idea in the future....



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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dumas Walker to PAULIE420 on Mon Nov 09 2020 02:43 pm

Your vote counts. Their votes count. Lets move on...

I don't think there was enough fraud or glitches to change the results. If there is some proof (like there really were votes casts by dead people, or some software package really did glitch and change votes), they should investigate to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I have found that voters who "don't care about fraud" seem to believe that it will always benefit their side. My thinking is that whoever has figured out how to, say, cast dead people votes and not get caught might sell their skills to the highest bidder. If that highest bidder turns out to be the other side, I bet those "don't care" folks start caring. They sure did 4 years ago when they thought it was the Russians causing it.

* SLMR 2.1a * Do unto others BEFORE they do unto YOU.

I get the impression those who don't care about fraud do not believe it is extensive enough or done at a scale to make a difference.

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But; I don't think that Trump is going to sway the results at all. I think that
Biden won THIS election - I am certainly interested in finding out if voting by
mailbrought enough issues to be deemed a bad idea in the future....

Yeah, I don't think it will sway the results enough to change the outcome, either. :)

I don't mind the vote by mail BUT I think they should be using the same scanable ballots that in-person voters use on election day. I have seen
new footage where people are opening the ballots and then casting the votes
on a touch screen voting machine. They should just be opening them,
verifying they are signed properly, and then sliding them in the scan
machine. I am not so much worried about fraud there as mistakes.


* SLMR 2.1a * Suicidal dyslexic jumps behind train - film at 11

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I have found that voters who "don't care about fraud" seem to believe that it will always benefit their side. My thinking is that whoever has figured
out how to, say, cast dead people votes and not get caught might sell their
skills to the highest bidder. If that highest bidder turns out to be the other side, I bet those "don't care" folks start caring. They sure did 4 years ago when they thought it was the Russians causing it.

I get the impression those who don't care about fraud do not believe it is extensive enough or done at a scale to make a difference.

The ones I know of who normally don't care about fraud, and use that as an excuse, sure were worried about it in 2000 and again in 2016.


* SLMR 2.1a * "Heh, heh, 2400 baud connects suck!" -- V.bis & Baudhead

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Yeah, I don't think it will sway the results enough to change the outcome,either. :)

I don't mind the vote by mail BUT I think they should be using the same scanable ballots that in-person voters use on election day.

I can agree with that - furthermore, I don't think in a normal election year we should have OR allow so many blanket mail-in voters.... this year, I think it was needed because... theres a national pandemic and all.

Whether you believe the hype or not, the virus is real - and spreading it when we could use an alternative that allows 10s of millions of Americans to not go stand in a long line, seems like the exact reason to use such a system. Sure... I think there was some extra BS because of it - but I think that BS was worth it and well spent.



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I can agree with that - furthermore, I don't think in a normal election year we
should have OR allow so many blanket mail-in voters.... this year, I think it w
s needed because... theres a national pandemic and all.

Agree on both counts ("normal" and this year).

Whether you believe the hype or not, the virus is real - and spreading it when >e could use an alternative that allows 10s of millions of Americans to not go s
and in a long line, seems like the exact reason to use such a system. Sure... I
think there was some extra BS because of it - but I think that BS was worth it >nd well spent.

I also agree it is real. I know people who have had it, and some that have been very sick with it. I don't know anyone who has died from it yet,
although one could have had she not received proper medical treatment. I
am curious to see if she ever fully recovers from it... she was early 50's
and had no medical conditions which should have made her more likely to get
it.

There is no way we could have had the primaries and general elections in
the same "normal" format during the pandemic. They way they did in person voting here for the general was great... social distancing and masks were emphasized. Using mail in for the primary was fine with me, especially
since they didn't seem to have a handle on how to handle in-person voting
yet. But I wanted to cast my general ballot in person, so I am glad they
had it set up so I could go early and stay properly distanced.


* SLMR 2.1a * "I'd like to buy a schwa, Pat."

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Re: Re: Fraud
By: paulie420 to Dumas Walker on Wed Nov 11 2020 06:31 pm

reiterate is- there WAS votes cast by dead people... there was glitchy software. My stance, however, is that the amount of such wasn't any thing new, or different than any other voting year - well... POSSIBLY there was a bit more, simply because of the nature of... how much of that happens/is allowed to happen because of increases voting by mail. So sure; I'm ok with investigating THAT... and then understanding if or if not voting by mail pushes it to a point that voting by mail doesn't make sense, or is dangerous.....

well if this software is tossing out trump votes AND changing trump votes to biden votes like some people are saying, some bad shit is going on and they need a recount.
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On 11/12/2020 2:15 PM, paulie420 wrote:

I can agree with that - furthermore, I don't think in a normal
election year we should have OR allow so many blanket mail-in
voters.... this year, I think it was needed because... theres
a national pandemic and all.

Whether you believe the hype or not, the virus is real - and
spreading it when we could use an alternative that allows 10s
of millions of Americans to not go stand in a long line, seems
like the exact reason to use such a system. Sure... I think
there was some extra BS because of it - but I think that BS was
worth it and well spent.

If it's safe to go to the store in person, it's safe to vote in
person.


--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

---
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If it's safe to go to the store in person, it's safe to vote in
person.
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

Its required to goto the store in person; it was easy to not make people vote in person.

I am, however, interested in hearing if there was any SERIOUS voting issues with all the mailins. If *everything* team Rudy G said today is correct, I'm all about figuring out if Trump was slighted. I don't see it yet, I hear Rudy G & gang TALKING a lot - but.. SHOW the judge. Up until now, it has been a lot of talk and backpeddling when its time to show the EVIDENCE in court.



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Re: Re: Fraud
By: paulie420 to Tracker1 on Thu Nov 19 2020 05:14 pm

Its required to goto the store in person; it was easy to not make people vot in person.

As an operator of an e-commerce I can tell you it is not required anymore to go to most stores in person :-P
--
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For the people that say there was no fraud or no evidence of fraud here is just 1 example the msm didn't want you to know about.
Nevada: The Silver State rushed a universal vote-by-mail measure through the legislature in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. The bill, known as AB 4, lacked safeguards to assure voter identity and was implemented without cleaning voter rolls of deceased voters, those who had moved, or who had become ineligible to vote.

Attorney Jesse Binnall testified before the Senate Homeland Security Committee on Dec. 16 as to what resulted.

He had proof of nearly 90,000 fraudulent or improper votes that were cast, including instances where:

More than 42,000 people voted multiple times.
At least 1,500 people listed as "dead" voted.
More than 19,000 non-residents voted.
In excess of 8,000 people cast mail-in votes from non-existent addresses.
Over 15,000 votes were cast from commercial or vacant addresses.
Nearly 4,000 non-citizens voted.
Considering Biden took Nevada by 33,596 votes, these allegations are serious.



Read Newsmax: In 2020, Vote Fraud Claims Were Not 'Baseless'
Urgent: Do you approve of Pres. Trump's job performance? Vote Here Now!

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Re: Fraud
By: Melkor to All on Thu Jan 14 2021 12:45 am

Attorney Jesse Binnall testified before the Senate Homeland Security Committee on Dec. 16 as to what resulted.

He had proof of nearly 90,000 fraudulent or improper votes that were cast, including instances where:

Once again, we can keep talking about how these votes were fraudulent, improper, etc., etc., but the reality is, they aren't based on reality. Nevada, like all the other states, validated all mail-in ballots. The argument that 90K ballots were fraudulent doesn't pass the sniff test.

Also, when push comes to shove, every case but one brought to court had zero evidence to prove voter fraud. If the percentage of fraud exists to the level you indicate, and in a state that is traditionally Republican dominated, how the hell could they've let Biden win? The answer is simple, there was no fraud.

Dream Master

---
■ Synchronet ■ Caught in a Dream - Coming Soon!

Also, when push comes to shove, every case but one brought to court had zero evidence to prove voter fraud. If the percentage of fraud exists to the level you indicate, and in a state that is traditionally Republican dominated, how the hell could they've let Biden win? The answer is simple, there was no fraud.

Dream Master

Of course there wasn't. Trump believers are just like their beloved dictator; childish, ignorant, racist, and uneducated. Same lot as the conspiracy theorists. Instead of facing reality, they live in a warm, cozy little world and
make things up to get attention. If you look at how most of these supporters act,
it's amusing.

But I guess there is no point in discussing this much longer, as Trump will be in
jail soon because they have to show the country that can't happen EVER. It's so nice now that he got banned from most social media platforms so we don't have to
get aggravated anymore listening to his mindless babble.

What a great week!
bunkerbbs.synchronetbbs.org port:6665
-Dedicated server running Wolfpack Empire 4.4.0.
-Custom unit files and game configuration settings.
-Coming soon...custom theme games.

---
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Philthy74 wrote to Dream Master <=-

Also, when push comes to shove, every case but one brought to court had zero evidence to prove voter fraud. If the percentage of fraud exists to the level you indicate, and in a state that is traditionally Republican dominated, how the hell could they've let Biden win? The answer is simple, there was no fraud.

Of course there wasn't. Trump believers are just like their
beloved dictator; childish, ignorant, racist, and uneducated.

Generalize much? I'm not really a "Trump believer", but.... fuck you
asshole. I guarantee you I'm none of those things you say, especially "uneducated". You ignorant fuck.


... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Gamgee to Philthy74 on Thu Jan 14 2021 09:19 pm

Of course there wasn't. Trump believers are just like their
beloved dictator; childish, ignorant, racist, and uneducated.

Generalize much? I'm not really a "Trump believer", but.... fuck you asshole. I guarantee you I'm none of those things you say, especially "uneducated". You ignorant fuck.

Guys, come on, let's stop the name calling. I realize when we debate some of our personal biases come out, but attacking each other is disrepectful. I had to teach myself some time ago that sometimes it is necessary to take a step back and assess what is being said and how a response should be made.

Peace, guys. Peace.

Dream Master

---
■ Synchronet ■ Caught in a Dream - Coming Soon!

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Gamgee to Philthy74 on Thu Jan 14 2021 09:19 pm

Philthy74 wrote to Dream Master <=-

Also, when push comes to shove, every case but one brought to court had zero evidence to prove voter fraud. If the
percentage of fraud exists to the level you indicate, and in a state that is traditionally Republican dominated, how the
hell could they've let Biden win? The answer is simple, there was no fraud.

Of course there wasn't. Trump believers are just like their
beloved dictator; childish, ignorant, racist, and uneducated.

Generalize much? I'm not really a "Trump believer", but.... fuck you asshole. I guarantee you I'm none of those things you say, especially "uneducated". You ignorant fuck.

... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.

This guy is a troll. Don't waste your time. He is not even good at it.

--
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Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

Of course there wasn't. Trump believers are just like their
beloved dictator; childish, ignorant, racist, and uneducated.

Generalize much? I'm not really a "Trump believer", but.... fuck you asshole. I guarantee you I'm none of those things you say, especially "uneducated". You ignorant fuck.

Guys, come on, let's stop the name calling. I realize when we
debate some of our personal biases come out, but attacking each
other is disrepectful.

Tell that to your fellow libtard there above, who started with the
namecalling and accusations.

I had to teach myself some time ago that
sometimes it is necessary to take a step back and assess what is
being said and how a response should be made.

What makes you think that wasn't done?



... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Philthy74 wrote to Dream Master <=-

Of course there wasn't. Trump believers are just like their beloved dictator; childish, ignorant, racist, and uneducated. Same lot as the conspiracy theorists. Instead of facing reality, they live in a warm,
cozy little world and make things up to get attention.

Lefties always project.


... I may be wrong, but I'm never in doubt!
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dream Master to Gamgee on Fri Jan 15 2021 12:28 am

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Gamgee to Philthy74 on Thu Jan 14 2021 09:19 pm

Of course there wasn't. Trump believers are just like their
beloved dictator; childish, ignorant, racist, and uneducated.

Generalize much? I'm not really a "Trump believer", but.... fuck you
asshole. I guarantee you I'm none of those things you say, especially
"uneducated". You ignorant fuck.

Guys, come on, let's stop the name calling. I realize when we debate some of our personal biases come out, but attacking each other is disrepectful. I had to teach myself some time ago that sometimes it is necessary to take a step back and assess what is being said and how a response should be made.

Peace, guys. Peace.

I'm not sure why we bother to debate this since everybody has made up their minds at this point and nothing anyone says is going to change anyones opinion. But there has to be an expectation that people are going to get irritated and pissed off when someone makes a blanket statement that all Trump supporters are childish, ignorant, racist and uneducated. The OP *is* an ignorant fuck.

If the left wants peace and harmony and unity then stop stoking the fucking fire already.

Immortal


... Ignorance is the mother of research.

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■ Synchronet ■ Immortal's Domain

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Immortal to Dream Master on Fri Jan 15 2021 09:39 am

I'm not sure why we bother to debate this since everybody has made up their minds at this point and nothing anyone says is going to change anyones opinion. But there has to be an expectation that people are going to get irritated and pissed off when someone makes a blanket statement that all Trump supporters are childish, ignorant, racist and uneducated. The OP *is* an ignorant fuck.

It's not pretty but it's important that we have this discussion in light of recent events. You don't have to take part if you'd rather not.

If the left wants peace and harmony and unity then stop stoking the fucking fire already.

The left wants?? The right wants??

Truth, honesty, integrity?

Ttyl :-),
Al

... Don't Panic! It's only ones and zeros.

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■ Synchronet ■ The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Immortal to Dream Master on Fri Jan 15 2021 09:39 am

I'm not sure why we bother to debate this since everybody has made up their minds at this point and nothing anyone says is going to change anyones opini But there has to be an expectation that people are going to get irritated an pissed off when someone makes a blanket statement that all Trump supporters childish, ignorant, racist and uneducated. The OP *is* an ignorant fuck.

If the left wants peace and harmony and unity then stop stoking the fucking fire already.

Immortal

He is a Troll, he is not after peace and harmony.

I bet next thing he did was to show up in some Democrat forum and tell them they suck because of what they did to Trump or something :-P

--
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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Al to Immortal on Fri Jan 15 2021 09:55 am

It's not pretty but it's important that we have this discussion in light of recent events. You don't have to take part if you'd rather not.

What exactly is the purpose of this important discussion? The left thinks Trump supporters can go fuck themselves and the right thinks Biden supporters can go fuck themselves. So lets just cut to the chase and everyone just go fuck themselves.

You just repeating over and over like a broken record that there was no fraud and Donald Trump is the worst human being on the face of the planet isn't really much of a discussion, it is simply your opinion.

Immortal


... Civilization is a movement, not a condition; it is a voyage, not a harbou

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■ Synchronet ■ Immortal's Domain

Also, when push comes to shove, every case but one brought to court had zero ev
dence to prove voter fraud. If the percentage of fraud exists to the level you
indicate, and in a state that is traditionally Republican dominated, how the he
l could they've let Biden win? The answer is simple, there was no fraud.

Some of the suits were tossed on technicalities and not due to no evidence.
The courts were afraid to touch them.

Do I believe there was voter fraud? Pretty sure of it.
Do I believe there was enough voter fraud that the outcome of the
Presidential election could be overturned? I seriously doubt it.

One thing I am curious about... a statewide election, like the runoffs they
had in Georgia, would seem to me to be much more of a potential hotbed for fraud, especially since the voters (and any potential fixers) already knew
the outcome of the Senate elections in the rest of the country.

I have wondered why no one has made any allegations there (that I know of).


* SLMR 2.1a * Tongue-tied & twisted, just an Earth-bound misfit, I!

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■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

Of course there wasn't. Trump believers are just like their beloved dictator;
childish, ignorant, racist, and uneducated. Same lot as the conspiracy theorists. Instead of facing reality, they live in a warm, cozy little world and
make things up to get attention. If you look at how most of these supporters act,
it's amusing.

Yes, and Biden/Democrat followers are just like their beloved leaders... elitests who throw around words like childish, ignorant, uneducated, and especially RACIST at the drop of a hat, especially when they think things
are not going their way or they want to shut someone up.

If you were watching how many of their supporters were acting over the
Summer, it was also amusing... just so long as it was not your business or
town that they were tearing apart.


* SLMR 2.1a * A restless eye across a weary room...

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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Immortal to Al on Fri Jan 15 2021 05:51 pm

What exactly is the purpose of this important discussion? The left thinks Trump supporters can go fuck themselves and the right thinks Biden supporters can go fuck themselves. So lets just cut to the chase and everyone just go fuck themselves.

Yeah, the left and right have their differences. That's not going to change.

The important discussion here is truth around the election. Truth in general.

You just repeating over and over like a broken record that there was no fraud and Donald Trump is the worst human being on the face of the planet isn't really much of a discussion, it is simply your opinion.

My opinion doesn't matter. Donald Trump's opinion doesn't matter. The truth does matter. There is no choice, we must pick up where we are and continue. That will be a lot easier if we have some kind of truth we can all get around.

Ttyl :-),
Al

... I'm sure it's all clearly explained in the Zmodem DOC's

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■ Synchronet ■ The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada

You just repeating over and over like a broken record that there was no fraud a
d Donald Trump is the worst human being on the face of the planet isn't really >uch of a discussion, it is simply your opinion.

+ 1x50


* SLMR 2.1a * "Tryin' is the first step towards failure." - Homer

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Immortal wrote to Dream Master <=-

If the left wants peace and harmony and unity then stop stoking the fucking fire already.

I always suggest that you read "1984" by George Orwell. It pretty much describes what the Lefties want.


... I'd love to, but I'm observing National Apathy Week.
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Immortal wrote to Al <=-

You just repeating over and over like a broken record that there was no fraud and Donald Trump is the worst human being on the face of the
planet isn't really much of a discussion, it is simply your opinion.

Lefties believe that if they repeat the lie over and over again, it will become truth.


... I may be wrong, but I'm never in doubt!
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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dr. What to Immortal on Sun Jan 17 2021 08:47 am

I always suggest that you read "1984" by George Orwell. It pretty much describes what the Lefties want.

You know what I want? I want people to be protected socially, physically, and economically. I don't want medical bills bankrupting people. I want to see our roads, bridges, and waterways without holes, not rusting, and clean and safe. I want people to stop confusing social programs with socialism.

But hey, fuck us all. Let's have anarchy and everyone fend for themselves. If a friend of mine goes bankrupt because they got cancer, well, fuck 'em.

Yeah, that's not we should be as a society.

Dream Master

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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dream Master to Dr. What on Sun Jan 17 2021 06:42 pm

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dr. What to Immortal on Sun Jan 17 2021 08:47 am

I always suggest that you read "1984" by George Orwell. It pretty
much describes what the Lefties want.

You know what I want? I want people to be protected socially, physically, and economically. I don't want medical bills bankrupting people. I want to see our roads, bridges, and waterways without holes, not rusting, and clean and safe. I want people to stop confusing social programs with socialism.

But hey, fuck us all. Let's have anarchy and everyone fend for themselves. If a friend of mine goes bankrupt because they got cancer, well, fuck 'em.

Yeah, that's not we should be as a society.

we have a fragile thing going on here. 2 more years of economic problems and we might be eating each other. we dont have what it takes to create a utopia where everything is handled.
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Re: Re: Fraud
By: MRO to Dream Master on Sun Jan 17 2021 10:26 pm

we have a fragile thing going on here. 2 more years of economic problems and we might be eating each other. we dont have what it takes to create a utopia where everything is handled.

I'm not wanting a utopia, I simply want everyone to be able to live a good life without fear of going bankrupt because they got sick. The rest of world, nope. In the US, yep. Something is definitely wrong here.

Dream Master

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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dream Master to MRO on Sun Jan 17 2021 11:28 pm

Re: Re: Fraud
By: MRO to Dream Master on Sun Jan 17 2021 10:26 pm

we have a fragile thing going on here. 2 more years of economic problems and we might be eating each other. we dont ha
what it takes to create a utopia where everything is handled.

I'm not wanting a utopia, I simply want everyone to be able to live a good life without fear of going bankrupt because they
sick. The rest of world, nope. In the US, yep. Something is definitely wrong here.

Dream Master

I think the US healthcare has a lot of issues to be addressed before you even start considering socializing it.

For starters, risk management makes prices go up. According to what I am hearing, the US is a litigious culture and you'll be
taken to court for everything. Somebody is dying in the emergency room and they have to take a tooth ouf of his mouth in order
to pass a breathing aid through his throat? The emergency personel gets sued. Hospitals and insurances are good with numbers,
and if they know a % of cases generate loses in the form of court conflict, they will make everyother patient pay for those
expenses - as any industry.

Then there is the issue the US makes it very difficult to import health professional from everywhere else, you are pretty much
stuck with the local mob-cartel of insurance companies you can access locally, and the FDA mafia takes good care of approving a
limited set of products - to the point some conditions can be treated with a single med from a specific vendor ONLY in the US.

Point is: there is artificial scarcity going on, a good chunk of it sponsored by the administration. I wonder why would you
want the administration to manage more of it given the fac they are screwing with the little they already have :-(

For the record, I live in Spain where we have fully socialized health care, and at this point in time is basically a
non-service. I could go on for hours explaining how it sucks, but the core idea is that nobody makes it work because they
already made you buy the "social insurance plan" and every nurse and doctor in it is earning their payroll no matter how good
or bad they do their job, with managers that don't give a damn because they are getting their money influx anyway independently
of the efficency of their hospitals.

The only people who benefits are public officers, because they have a special welfare deal in which they pay the welfare tax
but then they get to access private healthcare instead. Everybody else pays social healthcare and then pay private healthcare
when they need a service done.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I am a bit touchy with this subject because there is this whole political current trying to
demonize everything that is not socialized healthcare and it is trying very hard to damage the way I make a living. I am fed up
with communist posters that yell for the expropiation of private facilities - you know the ones that work - and the gov has
been trying to apply a 21% extra tax for private healthcare - because they have realized everybody is using it instead of their
non-functioning system, so they want their cut.

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Dream Master wrote to Dr. What <=-

I always suggest that you read "1984" by George Orwell. It pretty much describes what the Lefties want.

You know what I want? I want people to be protected socially,
physically, and economically. I don't want medical bills
bankrupting people. I want to see our roads, bridges, and
waterways without holes, not rusting, and clean and safe. I want
people to stop confusing social programs with socialism.

I think that basically everyone, regardless of political leanings,
wants that.

But hey, fuck us all. Let's have anarchy and everyone fend for themselves. If a friend of mine goes bankrupt because they got
cancer, well, fuck 'em.

There's a big difference between that extreme, and the opposite
extreme (socialism/communism). We are currently (and always have
been) somewhere in between those extremes. Social programs are
critical, no doubt, but........ what can happen (and what *HAS*
happened) is that there is rampant abuse/fraud in those programs and
as a result they don't do enough. If all the lazy freeloaders were
removed, the programs could service those who actually *NEED* help,
and all the healthcare/infrastructure problems would be over.

Simple, eh? The problem comes with the Left's refusual to clean
things up. They (Dems) need those programs to keep all the abusers
dependent on their government, so that the votes keep coming in from
those folks for the Dems. Really, it's that simple. It's a vicious
circle situation, one feeds the other.

Yeah, that's not we should be as a society.

Agreed again. The real issue is that we *COULD* fix all of this, but
refuse to.



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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Gamgee to Dream Master on Mon Jan 18 2021 08:43 am

There's a big difference between that extreme, and the opposite
extreme (socialism/communism). We are currently (and always have
been) somewhere in between those extremes. Social programs are
critical, no doubt, but........ what can happen (and what *HAS*
happened) is that there is rampant abuse/fraud in those programs and
as a result they don't do enough. If all the lazy freeloaders were
removed, the programs could service those who actually *NEED* help,
and all the healthcare/infrastructure problems would be over.

If you remove the need for those to create fraud and abuse, then we can service everyone equally. The argument between the left and right (and how they've flipped over the years), is that whites considered blacks freeloaders and that social programs benefitted them. Essentially, taxing white people for social programs benefitted black people. This antiquated ideal created a war of words between left and right leaning people. The solution to the problem is simple: if you are a citizen of the United States, whether you work or not, you are taken care of.

Simple, eh? The problem comes with the Left's refusual to clean
things up. They (Dems) need those programs to keep all the abusers dependent on their government, so that the votes keep coming in from
those folks for the Dems. Really, it's that simple. It's a vicious
circle situation, one feeds the other.

There is nothing to clean up. Right leaning individuals don't want government intervention until they absolutely need it. Some of the staunchest right leaning states are also the poorest and are some of the highest receivers of state and federal aid and subsidy. The argument that this is a "leftie" problem is a false narrative as the states that lean right refuse to acknowledge their problem and continue to vote Republican because they put their "faith-based" spin on everything.

Yeah, that's not we should be as a society.

Agreed again. The real issue is that we *COULD* fix all of this, but
refuse to.

We've tried. There are too many members of Congress who are in the pockets of hospitals and insurance companies. You remove the lobbyists, you solve the problem.

Dream Master

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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dream Master to Gamgee on Mon Jan 18 2021 10:31 am

If you remove the need for those to create fraud and abuse, then we can service everyone
equally. The argument between the left and right (and how they've flipped over the years),

Here is the thing:

Lots of people who does not need to abuse the system are going to abuse the system. Greed works
like that.

Main reason why governments hire public officers is that then they can keep offering perks to
the public officers with everybody else's money, and buy their votes that way. Once you pocket
in two more groups you have a solid voter base. And you are not even using your own money.

Then you have people who is rolling in money (like some guy I know) get some help funds they do
not need because they belong to minority X... they will vote the party who is giving them free
stuff and the party will keep getting stuff for them with _your_ money because their minority
is more relevant than yours in the polls.

Then you get good old heterowhites screwed because some pandemic hits and there are no
resources for them because they were all wasted in art/ethnic support/film development
programs, with a lot of people who didn't really need the funds more than a lot of people who
is not getting a dime.

It is all a giganting auction, in which some political party tries to gather votes by bidding
with somebody else's wallet.


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Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Gamgee to Dream Master on Mon Jan 18 2021 08:43 am

There's a big difference between that extreme, and the opposite
extreme (socialism/communism). We are currently (and always have
been) somewhere in between those extremes. Social programs are
critical, no doubt, but........ what can happen (and what *HAS*
happened) is that there is rampant abuse/fraud in those programs and
as a result they don't do enough. If all the lazy freeloaders were
removed, the programs could service those who actually *NEED* help,
and all the healthcare/infrastructure problems would be over.

If you remove the need for those to create fraud and abuse, then
we can service everyone equally. The argument between the left
and right (and how they've flipped over the years), is that
whites considered blacks freeloaders and that social programs
benefitted them. Essentially, taxing white people for social
programs benefitted black people. This antiquated ideal created
a war of words between left and right leaning people. The
solution to the problem is simple: if you are a citizen of the
United States, whether you work or not, you are taken care of.

Your last sentence is not a "solution", it's a continuation of the
problem (abuse/fraud). It removes the incentive for lazy fucks to
work, because they can do almost/as good by not working. So that's
what they do. It's also the classic Lefty/socialist plank in the Dem platform. So, no thanks, that's no solution. Also, it's not a
black/white thing, there are just as many moochers regardless of
color. If the government cracked down on abuse, and the assholes
realized they had to work if they want to eat, well....... they'd
fuckin work.

Simple, eh? The problem comes with the Left's refusual to clean
things up. They (Dems) need those programs to keep all the abusers dependent on their government, so that the votes keep coming in from
those folks for the Dems. Really, it's that simple. It's a vicious
circle situation, one feeds the other.

There is nothing to clean up. Right leaning individuals don't
want government intervention until they absolutely need it. Some
of the staunchest right leaning states are also the poorest and
are some of the highest receivers of state and federal aid and
subsidy. The argument that this is a "leftie" problem is a false narrative as the states that lean right refuse to acknowledge
their problem and continue to vote Republican because they put
their "faith-based" spin on everything.

It's not a false narrative, and "faith" has nothing to do with it.
It's simple abuse/fraud, that the left condones, because it keeps
their voters dependent on them, and guarantees they (the lefty
politicians) will continue to receive their votes.

Yeah, that's not we should be as a society.

Agreed again. The real issue is that we *COULD* fix all of this, but
refuse to.

We've tried. There are too many members of Congress who are in
the pockets of hospitals and insurance companies. You remove the lobbyists, you solve the problem.

Lobbyists are indeed a problem, and should be prevented from doing
what they do, but much of that is behind closed doors and nearly
impossible to prevent. A better solution is TERM LIMITS. My
preference would be ONE six-year term for a House member, and up to
TWO four-year terms for a Senator. That's it. Also should be massive reductions in the pension they get for serving that short of a time.



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Arelor wrote to Dream Master <=-

@MSGID: <6006109D.3563.dove-debate@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6005C5FC.2549.dove-debate@caughtinadream.com>
Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dream Master to Gamgee on
Mon Jan 18 2021 10:31 am

If you remove the need for those to create fraud and abuse, then we can

servi

ce everyone

equally. The argument between the left and right (and how they've flipped

ov

er the years),

Here is the thing:

Lots of people who does not need to abuse the system are going to abuse the system. Greed works like that.

Main reason why governments hire public officers is that then they can keep offering perks to the public officers with everybody else's money, and buy their votes that way. Once you pocket in two more groups you
have a solid voter base. And you are not even using your own money.

Then you have people who is rolling in money (like some guy I know) get some help funds they do not need because they belong to minority X...
they will vote the party who is giving them free stuff and the party
will keep getting stuff for them with _your_ money because their
minority is more relevant than yours in the polls.

Then you get good old heterowhites screwed because some pandemic hits
and there are no resources for them because they were all wasted in art/ethnic support/film development programs, with a lot of people who didn't really need the funds more than a lot of people who is not
getting a dime.

It is all a giganting auction, in which some political party tries to gather votes by bidding with somebody else's wallet.

Social programs and government spending are not socialism. We do not have a 'hybrid' system. The means of production are privately owned, people have to rent themselves out for a living. China is "inbetween". We are thoroughly Capitalist. Increases in government spending mean squat. The fundamental structure of our economy, of property rights remain unchanged.

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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dream Master to MRO on Sun Jan 17 2021 11:28 pm

we have a fragile thing going on here. 2 more years of economic
problems and we might be eating each other. we dont have what it
takes to create a utopia where everything is handled.

I'm not wanting a utopia, I simply want everyone to be able to live a good life without fear of going bankrupt because they got sick. The rest of world, nope. In the US, yep. Something is definitely wrong here.

it's not always as good for them as you might think. canada for example. there are differences in coverage based on the region and i believe you are only covered when you have a hospital stay; nothing else.

the thing is, even if you have good coverage, depending on the state, if you have something serious your employer can dump you because you can't come into work.

i'd rather use sometihng like singapore's private health care facilities than live like people in sweden do.

also note that these countries that have everything 'free' are a lot smaller and different than the usa.
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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Arelor to Dream Master on Mon Jan 18 2021 03:39 am

Sorry for the wall of text, but I am a bit touchy with this subject because there is this whole political current trying to demonize everything that is not socialized healthcare and it is trying very hard to damage the way I make a living. I am fed up with communist posters that yell for the expropiation of private facilities - you know the ones that work - and the gov has been trying to apply a 21% extra tax for private healthcare - because they have realized everybody is using it instead of

i'm glad to see your point of view. in the usa there are a lot of people that believe that other countries have perfect healthcare. you walk in and immediately everything is paid for and there's no issues or waiting.

morgan spurlock had a show 'inside man' and he went to thailand and had the works done real cheap. AND he stayed in a nice room.
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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Gamgee to Dream Master on Mon Jan 18 2021 09:15 pm

Your last sentence is not a "solution", it's a continuation of the
problem (abuse/fraud). It removes the incentive for lazy fucks to
work, because they can do almost/as good by not working. So that's
what they do. It's also the classic Lefty/socialist plank in the Dem platform. So, no thanks, that's no solution. Also, it's not a
black/white thing, there are just as many moochers regardless of
color. If the government cracked down on abuse, and the assholes
realized they had to work if they want to eat, well....... they'd
fuckin work.

Yet, who cares? What incentives do people have if they constantly remain in poverty? If all you can do is work at McDonald's for the rest of your life, are you going to attempt to better yourself? If all you've ever been told is "You're not smart enough to go to college, you're not smart enough to get a better job," and if you believe it, all you are going to do is work at McDonald's and continue being in poverty. Worse, there are people who are the "intentionally homeless" because their income doesn't afford them the ability to own a home or pay rent yet they can have a cell phone... so, they live in community dwellings or in tent cities. (btw, I am using McDonald's as an example of companies who pay low wages with zero benefits.)

If you read history, you'll clearly see that white conservative leaning people have always tagged black individuals as consumers of social programs, yet, this isn't true. The argument for social programs is to help the masses yet conservatives won't step out of their comfort zone and actually help the masses because the narrative they've been "taught" is that they are paying for others (read black) laziness.

Simple, eh? The problem comes with the Left's refusual to clean
things up. They (Dems) need those programs to keep all the abusers dependent on their government, so that the votes keep coming in from those folks for the Dems. Really, it's that simple. It's a vicious circle situation, one feeds the other.

It's not a false narrative, and "faith" has nothing to do with it.
It's simple abuse/fraud, that the left condones, because it keeps
their voters dependent on them, and guarantees they (the lefty
politicians) will continue to receive their votes.

Conservatives tend to use the argument about Roe v Wade (Abortion/Women Rights) and the removal of faith-based programs whenever they are candidates for office. This is why the Bible-belt and deep south tend to stay conservative.

Lobbyists are indeed a problem, and should be prevented from doing
what they do, but much of that is behind closed doors and nearly
impossible to prevent. A better solution is TERM LIMITS. My
preference would be ONE six-year term for a House member, and up to
TWO four-year terms for a Senator. That's it. Also should be massive reductions in the pension they get for serving that short of a time.

I, too, agree that Congress should have term limits just like any other office. If you are no longer on a throne of power, maybe you'll start looking out for the interests of your constituents instead of yourself.

Dream Master


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Re: Re: Fraud
By: MRO to Dream Master on Tue Jan 19 2021 01:30 am

it's not always as good for them as you might think. canada for example. there are differences in coverage based on the region and i believe you are only covered when you have a hospital stay; nothing else.

I have a number of friends that live in Canada (different provinces) and they all report that the Canadian Healthcare system does have its issues but medical care is immediately provided for emergencies, you are able to see your doctor when you need to, and elective procedures may take a few weeks to a month to be permitted--similar to what is done in the US.

the thing is, even if you have good coverage, depending on the state, if you have something serious your employer can dump you because you can't come into work.

This is why socialized healthcare and worker protections would come into play. If you remove the employee's fear that they will be terminated when they get sick and end up in the hospital (short enought to not warrant short-term disability but long enough that they miss a week of work), they'll get the healthcare they need as soon as they're sick versus when they are near death.

i'd rather use sometihng like singapore's private health care facilities than live like people in sweden do.

Been to Singapore. Spent a significant amount of time there. Their system is similar to the rest of the world: cross polination of privatized healthcare with a full-public option.

also note that these countries that have everything 'free' are a lot smaller and different than the usa.

India, China, Russia, etc...

Dream Master

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MRO wrote to Dream Master <=-

we have a fragile thing going on here. 2 more years of economic
problems and we might be eating each other. we dont have what it
takes to create a utopia where everything is handled. ---

Part of the problem with Lefties is that they are completely unable to handle reality. Their pipe-dreams are the only thing that they can handle.


... Politicians cut red tape....LENGTHWISE
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Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-

Your last sentence is not a "solution", it's a continuation of the
problem (abuse/fraud).

One thing about Lefties is that they refuse to accept - or simply cannot understand - basic human nature.

In "Liars and Outliars" Bruce Schneier goes over why some people (and there will always be some) in a society cheat - even if they don't need to.

Good processes will recognize this and work to eliminate the cheating. They usually can't, but they can keep the cheats down enough to not break the system.


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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dream Master to MRO on Tue Jan 19 2021 07:05 am

the thing is, even if you have good coverage, depending on the state,
if you have something serious your employer can dump you because you
can't come into work.

This is why socialized healthcare and worker protections would come into play. If you remove the employee's fear that they will be terminated when they get sick and end up in the hospital (short enought to not warrant short-term disability but long enough that they miss a week of work), they'll get the healthcare they need as soon as they're sick versus when

well you dont have to gut the entire system. you can just write a law for that.

i think people need to focus on staying healthy. i hate going to the fucking doctor. i hate the waiting and the bullshit.
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Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Gamgee to Dream Master on Mon Jan 18 2021 09:15 pm

Your last sentence is not a "solution", it's a continuation of the
problem (abuse/fraud). It removes the incentive for lazy fucks to
work, because they can do almost/as good by not working. So that's
what they do. It's also the classic Lefty/socialist plank in the Dem platform. So, no thanks, that's no solution. Also, it's not a
black/white thing, there are just as many moochers regardless of
color. If the government cracked down on abuse, and the assholes
realized they had to work if they want to eat, well....... they'd
fuckin work.

Yet, who cares?

Well, I do, for one. There are quite a few million others who do too.

What incentives do people have if they
constantly remain in poverty?

You said it right there. The incentive is to get out of poverty.

If all you can do is work at
McDonald's for the rest of your life, are you going to attempt to
better yourself?

Yes, I am. I'm going to prove them wrong, and better myself.

If all you've ever been told is "You're not
smart enough to go to college, you're not smart enough to get a
better job," and if you believe it, all you are going to do is
work at McDonald's and continue being in poverty.

Some will. Some others will work 2 or 3 jobs, find a way to get some education, etc... Attend a trade school instead of college. Do
*SOMETHING* to help yourself, instead of continuing the problem.

For those that insist on doing *NOTHING*, well..... I don't have much
pity for them. Sorry, not sorry. Help yourself if you can't find
somebody else to help you.

DM Worse, there

are people who are the "intentionally homeless" because their
income doesn't afford them the ability to own a home or pay rent
yet they can have a cell phone... so, they live in community
dwellings or in tent cities. (btw, I am using McDonald's as an
example of companies who pay low wages with zero benefits.)

Yep, those are the kind of people who fall into the "fuck 'em"
category for me. If you can spend all that money on the latest cell
phone, and $300 sneakers, etc... then you should be helping yourself.

If you read history, you'll clearly see that white conservative
leaning people have always tagged black individuals as consumers
of social programs, yet, this isn't true. The argument for
social programs is to help the masses yet conservatives won't
step out of their comfort zone and actually help the masses
because the narrative they've been "taught" is that they are
paying for others (read black) laziness.

You seem to insist on keeping the black/racism element alive in the conversation. I've already said that if anything, the majority of
welfare program abusers are not black. There's no color/race thing
going on here. Fraud and abuse have no place, and that is exactly why
these programs don't help those who actually need the help. If the
fucking abuse was removed, the programs could serve those who really
need it, and serve them well enough to lift them out of the vicious
circle of poverty. But the political left won't let that happen, for
reasons that I've already stated. It would ruin them politically.

It's fairly clear that we're on opposite ends of the political
spectrum, but at least we're having a reasonable conversation. I have
trouble understanding how Leftists can possibly defend the social
programs that we have, knowing they do almost no good for the
recipients, and knowing that these programs could be fixed if we would
just weed out the bad apples and enforce/punish violators. It's hard
to swallow that they are willing to make people suffer that much, just
in order to keep their "base" around to vote them back for another
term, endlessly. I think it's shameful, and actually criminal.

Don't even get me started on illegal immigration and open borders.



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It's not a false narrative, and "faith" has nothing to do with it.
It's simple abuse/fraud, that the left condones, because it keeps
their voters dependent on them, and guarantees they (the lefty
politicians) will continue to receive their votes.

+1.


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Hello Gamgee!

** On Monday 18.01.21 - 21:15, Gamgee wrote to Dream Master:

..If the government cracked down on abuse, and the assholes
realized they had to work if they want to eat, well.......
they'd fuckin work.

There are ways to remain "professionally unemployable". Simply
do not change your clothes, maintain poor hygiene, and act
stupid. No one will want to employ you. Meanwhile the gov't
will pay you welfare for life, and add a disability benefit for
your mental condition.

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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dream Master to Gamgee on Tue Jan 19 2021 06:54 am

I think you give poor, working class or uneducated people far less credit than they
deserve.

There is uneducated people I know with no studies who has health issues, plenty of
kids, and who struggle to make it past each month... and some of them are trying to
get studies, get different jobs and in general improve their standing, every single
day. And those who are serious about it usually end up better.

Then you have people who has safe ok paid jobs who drop their employment because the
job is not cool enough and it is more comfy to get lower paying job and let their
boyfriend compensate for the difference.

I am not really on board with the idea that if you have no studies you are a failure.
If anything we have a surplus of degreed people who ends up working at fast foods
because there is no need for 800 biology professors in a town with 1000 inhabitants :(
In fact I think it is very likely that if you spent the time to get a degree you lack
real professional experience - experience that you should have gotten with the degree
with was most likely never gathered at college. You are going to learn more about
engineering kicking a boiler into functioning than in two months of Applied Thermodynamics at college.

--
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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Arelor to Dream Master on Wed Jan 20 2021 09:28 am

I am not really on board with the idea that if you have no studies you are a failure. If anything we have a surplus of degreed people who ends up working at fast foods because there is no need for 800 biology professors in a town with 1000 inhabitants :( In fact I think it is very likely that if you spent the time to get a degree you lack real professional experience - experience that you should have gotten with the degree with was most likely never gathered at college. You are going to learn more about engineering kicking a boiler into functioning than in two months of Applied Thermodynamics at college.

I think that's true for some jobs & situations. But there are jobs where a college education or some kind of certification is beneficial. Would you want to see a surgeon who hasn't had an education and is learning on the job?

I'm a softawre engineer who went to college for it. I've worked with one or two people who people who were self-studied in software development - I think it's possible to be a good software developer that way, though people without the educational background might not be familiar with some things that people with the educational background would know. There was one person I worked with who was self-taught in software development, and sometimes we'd mention some things related to software development or math & things we learned in college, and he'd say he wasn't familiar with that.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jan 20 2021 12:21 pm

I'm a softawre engineer who went to college for it. I've worked with one or two people who people who were self-studied in software development - I think it's possible to be a good software developer that way, though people without the educational background might not be familiar with some things that people with the educational background would know. There was one person I worked with who was self-taught in software development, and sometimes we'd mention some things related to software development or math & things we learned in college, and he'd say he wasn't familiar with that.

Although I applaud you for obtaining a college education for software engineering, I believe it is very possible to become an amazing engineer simply through self-study, trial and error, and working towards a goal. Like everything in this world, we learn by doing. Colleges teach us how to do something but not why we do it. For example, when I was in college, they were teaching Pascal first then would move onto C and eventually ASM. I, for one, found the professors a little too eccentric (okay, they were children of the 60s and it showed) for my extremely even level-headed personality. So, I stopped going. I eventually dropped out of college and focused on Systems Administration and Engineering.

It's interesting to see college graduates who've focused on Systems Administration and Engineering. They may have four to six years of college behind them but they simply have no clue. Don't get me wrong, they understand the concepts but don't comprehend why. My thirty years in the field, the trial and error, the self-study, they've all paid off. Would I go back to college for that piece of paper, it's an ongoing debate for me, but I likely would. But my point remains and your argument makes sense: "...mention some things related to software development or math & things we learned in college, and he'd say he wasn't familiar..." would immediately trigger me to investigate, learn, adapt, and be prepared for our next discussion.

Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

---
■ Synchronet ■ Caught in a Dream - Coming Soon!

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jan 20 2021 12:21 pm

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Arelor to Dream Master on Wed Jan 20 2021 09:28 am

I am not really on board with the idea that if you have no studies you a failure. If anything we have a surplus of degreed people who ends up working at fast foods because there is no need for 800 biology professo in a town with 1000 inhabitants :( In fact I think it is very likely th if you spent the time to get a degree you lack real professional experience - experience that you should have gotten with the degree wit was most likely never gathered at college. You are going to learn more about engineering kicking a boiler into functioning than in two months Applied Thermodynamics at college.

I think that's true for some jobs & situations. But there are jobs where a college education or some kind of certification is beneficial. Would you wa to see a surgeon who hasn't had an education and is learning on the job?

I'm a softawre engineer who went to college for it. I've worked with one or two people who people who were self-studied in software development - I thin it's possible to be a good software developer that way, though people withou the educational background might not be familiar with some things that peopl with the educational background would know. There was one person I worked w who was self-taught in software development, and sometimes we'd mention some things related to software development or math & things we learned in colleg and he'd say he wasn't familiar with that.

Nightfox

It used to be the case that the way a would-be surgeon would become a surgeon was to work with an actual surgeon and help him opening people up :-) Last time the subject came up with a thraumatologist around, he mentioned that there are some things you may learn in the classroom, but for some delicate stuff he could see no way to learn it but by close experience.

I am not tlking about becoming good at a job without having a degree. I am talking about this modern idea that unless you get one of these jobs that requires a degree, you are a hopeless failure. There is a lot of people who seem to think that if you don't become a doctor or a lawyer and end up being a salesman you screwed up in life.

There are plenty succesful people with no University experience who prove that line wrong.

Also, there are Computer Science students doing their last year that don't know that passwords are to be stored in hashed form, what TLS is, and could not code a line of C++ for the life of them. When I went to HP's boot camp the general feeling in the place was that people was learning more in 2 months there than in 2 years in college.

Man, you managed to get me a bit depresed.


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DM Worse, there

are people who are the "intentionally homeless" because their
income doesn't afford them the ability to own a home or pay rent
yet they can have a cell phone... so, they live in community
dwellings or in tent cities. (btw, I am using McDonald's as an
example of companies who pay low wages with zero benefits.)

Yep, those are the kind of people who fall into the "fuck 'em"
category for me. If you can spend all that money on the latest cell
phone, and $300 sneakers, etc... then you should be helping yourself.

When I was younger and was out with my grandfather, if we happened to drive through a "rough" part of town in his 10+ y/o car, he'd point out all of
the very new, top name cars and large TV antennas (this was the 70's/80's) outside of houses that were half falling down.

His point was similar to yours.

You seem to insist on keeping the black/racism element alive in the conversation. I've already said that if anything, the majority of
welfare program abusers are not black. There's no color/race thing
going on here. Fraud and abuse have no place, and that is exactly why
these programs don't help those who actually need the help. If the
fucking abuse was removed, the programs could serve those who really
need it, and serve them well enough to lift them out of the vicious
circle of poverty. But the political left won't let that happen, for
reasons that I've already stated. It would ruin them politically.

Exactly. The Democrats/left politicians don't want to help anyone out of poverty. They want to keep them there to manipulate them. Their best answer
to poverty is not to lift anyone out... their way of leveling things is to bring the middle class down into poverty instead.


* SLMR 2.1a * Life after death - is that Terminate and Stay Resident?

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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Jan 20 2021 06:27 pm

It used to be the case that the way a would-be surgeon would become a surgeon was to work with an actual surgeon and help him opening people up :-) Last time the subject came up with a thraumatologist around, he mentioned that there are some things you may learn in the classroom, but for some delicate stuff he could see no way to learn it but by close experience.

When I first got into large corporate IT, my boss told me, "Do not touch a thing without asking me first." I internally questioned why. What he was trying to teach me was to no longer think "how I would do it" but what is the best and most appropriate way to do things. As I proved myself, he let me go off and do whatever it took to get the job done. I ended up traveling the world for the company and stayed with them for over twenty years.

I am not tlking about becoming good at a job without having a degree. I am talking about this modern idea that unless you get one of these jobs that requires a degree, you are a hopeless failure. There is a lot of people who seem to think that if you don't become a doctor or a lawyer and end up being a salesman you screwed up in life.

The stigma of not going to college runs rampant through high schools. Both my oldest son and daughter (now 20 and 19 respectively) were told, very clearly, that they need to go to college or you won't get anywhere in life, won't be successful, and won't make any money. My son works at Costco, makes good money, has his own medical and dental insurance, and makes me proud. My daughter, she felt that college would be the only way for her to get into the field that interests her yet she chose the route of community college instead of a traditional four year college or university. She works and goes to school, I am equally proud of her.

There are plenty succesful people with no University experience who prove that line wrong.

For me, adding a degree would simply be an accomplishment. I started college after just turning 17. I stopped close to my 19th birthday. I repeated this all the way up to last year. For me, I simply want to say, "Damn it, I did it!" Will it get me more money, no. Will it give me a promotion, no. Will it make me feel good, yes.

Also, there are Computer Science students doing their last year that don't know that passwords are to be stored in hashed form, what TLS is, and could not code a line of C++ for the life of them. When I went to HP's boot camp the general feeling in the place was that people was learning more in 2 months there than in 2 years in college.

Back in 1997 I was asked by the owner of the company I worked at to interview candidates who just passed a retraining program in California for displaced engineers (EEs). These were extremely smart men and women and excellent test takers. I asked a very simple question, "What is the record type in DNS to translate a hostname to IP address?" Every candidate that I interviewed couldn't answer it. So, I changed it up. "What port number is DNS?" The answer, "53". Excellent! They knew what DNS is, how to communicate to it, but absolutely no idea about its internals.

Man, you managed to get me a bit depresed.

I am sorry. When I look back, I realize the mistakes I made, the missteps I took, and the poor choices I've made. I also realize that I learned from all of those making me better at what I do.

Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

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■ Synchronet ■ Caught in a Dream - Coming Soon!

Dream Master wrote to Dr. What <=-

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dr. What to Immortal on Sun Jan 17 2021 08:47 am

I always suggest that you read "1984" by George Orwell. It pretty much describes what the Lefties want.

You know what I want? I want people to be protected socially,
physically, and economically. I don't want medical bills bankrupting people. I want to see our roads, bridges, and waterways without holes, not rusting, and clean and safe. I want people to stop confusing
social programs with socialism.

But hey, fuck us all. Let's have anarchy and everyone fend for themselves. If a friend of mine goes bankrupt because they got cancer, well, fuck 'em.

I so much hate this left vs. right conversation naming people with sarcasm to highlight where they belong.

In my country everybody who is not right-winged conservative is called a "Leftie" more often.
In avenge, everybody who does not have nationalistic aspiration with only one god definition that is catholic, with only one definition of justice that is _not_ justice for all and risking a lot of democratic institutions being built in last 30 years called these who support this idiocracy modern nazis..

I refer to Poland of course.

in my countries are only Lefties and Nazis... and there will be a civil war soon if we don't find the way to talk closer to the center.


I miss so much world that was politically central with a bit of left aspiration toward social programs and support and progressiveness and tolerance to differences and a bit of rightism with tradition, self-empowerement and responsibility on the other side..

But not too much left and not too much right otherwise we'll go directly into a revolution and civil wars to realize that nothing has changed, we just have more victims.


... Typing from HackinDOS, iMac converted to work natively with FreeDOS 1.2
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ Amiga City - The BBS for the Amiga - more than 4,000+ files

Dream Master wrote to MRO <=-

Re: Re: Fraud
By: MRO to Dream Master on Sun Jan 17 2021 10:26 pm

we have a fragile thing going on here. 2 more years of economic problems and we might be eating each other. we dont have what it takes to create a utopia where everything is handled.

I'm not wanting a utopia, I simply want everyone to be able to live a
good life without fear of going bankrupt because they got sick. The
rest of world, nope. In the US, yep. Something is definitely wrong
here.

Europe has it (better medical plans), but it also has its own problems.

Dream Master

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... Typing from HackinDOS, iMac converted to work natively with FreeDOS 1.2
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Ogg wrote to Gamgee <=-

There are ways to remain "professionally unemployable". Simply
do not change your clothes, maintain poor hygiene, and act
stupid. No one will want to employ you. Meanwhile the gov't
will pay you welfare for life, and add a disability benefit for
your mental condition.

Too true, unfortunately.

I've seen too many people who worked to become unemployable. Every reason
they get turned down for a job is directly related to a (bad) decision that they made.


... Error-Disk Full Error,Formatting Drive C: to make space
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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dream Master to Nightfox on Wed Jan 20 2021 03:26 pm

Like everything in this world, we learn by doing. Colleges teach us how to do something but not why we do it. For example, when I was in college, they were teaching Pascal first then would move onto C and eventually ASM.

For some things, I'd think you might already know why you'd do it.. I already knew why I wanted to go into software engineering - I enjoyed it and thought it would be a good way to make a living.

It's interesting to see college graduates who've focused on Systems Administration and Engineering. They may have four to six years of college behind them but they simply have no clue. Don't get me wrong, they understand the concepts but don't comprehend why. My thirty years in the field, the trial and error, the self-study, they've all paid off. Would I

Anyone who is new in the field would lack experience, whether they went to college or not. Everyone starts somewhere. Even if you do self-study, you're new at some point and lack experience. So I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say about having a college education. It sounds like you're saying having a college education can be pointless..?

Nightfox

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Jan 20 2021 06:27 pm

Also, there are Computer Science students doing their last year that don't know that passwords are to be stored in hashed form, what TLS is, and could not code a line of C++ for the life of them. When I went to HP's boot camp the general feeling in the place was that people was learning more in 2 months there than in 2 years in college.

I'm tempted to say it's probably the fault of the colleges for passing students like that, or not including some vital information in their curriculum, etc.. I think I went through a fairly good program in college, but I was also already fairly familiar with computers and knew what I was getting into.

I've heard of computer science programs in college that teach mainly the concepts and may have a few classes in programming. I've also heard of electrical engineering students who end up in software jobs. The program I was in was specifically software engineering, and we had a lot of instruction in writing software and hands-on practice writing code. After they taught object-oriented concepts in the first term, we started writing C++ code in the second term. I had already taken some programming classes before that though (I had taken CS160 and 161, which were a couple terms of programming with C++ at my college I was going to at the time).

Nightfox

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dr. What to Ogg on Thu Jan 21 2021 08:38 am

Ogg wrote to Gamgee <=-

There are ways to remain "professionally unemployable". Simply
do not change your clothes, maintain poor hygiene, and act
stupid. No one will want to employ you. Meanwhile the gov't
will pay you welfare for life, and add a disability benefit for
your mental condition.

Too true, unfortunately.

I've seen too many people who worked to become unemployable. Every reason they get turned down for a job is directly related to a (bad) decision that they made.

i live in a state that is usually called a welfare state. people could have a bunch of kids and do better than upper middle class by living off the system.

i've seen people that love doing drugs just get disability.
---
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Re: Re: Fraud
By: MRO to Dr. What on Thu Jan 21 2021 09:29 pm

i live in a state that is usually called a welfare state. people could have a bunch of kids and do better than upper middle class by living off the system.

It's interesting to note that in Colorado, where the cost of living is fairly consistent throughout the Front Range (basically, everything east of the Rocky Mountains), a family of five should clear $100K annually. I won't disagree with you as the system considers you underpaid if you make less than $7,475/month ($89.7K/year). Have more kids, that number improves. For example, if you have 4 people in the family, that number is $114K/year.

i've seen people that love doing drugs just get disability.

It makes sense. Hell, alcoholism is considered a disability.

Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

---
■ Synchronet ■ Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dream Master to MRO on Thu Jan 21 2021 10:40 pm

i've seen people that love doing drugs just get disability.

It makes sense. Hell, alcoholism is considered a disability.

A sound tech I know swears that one of her friends is trying to cause permanent neurological damage on himself in order to get
government funds, via marihuana abuse :-P

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

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i live in a state that is usually called a welfare state. people could have a bunch of kids and do better than upper middle class by living off the system.

i've seen people that love doing drugs just get disability.

My parents were ministers and as such did a lot of charity work with the public. Through the years, I have seen generations of welfare families... and how they literally groom their children to GET the disability.

I hate to say it, but its like they raise up idiots on purpose, just to qualify for checks because there is learning issues or......... whatever will check the boxes and make the checks come in.

Its sad. And now, I wish I would have listened more.
:P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Arelor to Dream Master on Fri Jan 22 2021 03:22 am

A sound tech I know swears that one of her friends is trying to cause permanent neurological damage on himself in order to get government funds, via marihuana abuse :-P

Oh, that's messed up. I get that life can be hard, but damn!

At my former company, we had an employee who worked for us for about a year then suddenly got afflicted with some problem that caused him to go on disability. We understood and were saddened when he informed us that he was going on disability and that he was hopeful to be back soon. Six months to the day, he showed back up to work. Why? Disability was paid at 100% for 8 weeks, 80% from 8 weeks to 26, and then would go down to 50% from week 26 on. He worked for a week and went back on disability again for a slightly different ailment. Wash, rinse, and repeat. He did this for a little over two years. The company finally changed their disability policy. He was RIF'd during COVID (it was the only way they could get rid of him).

I hate people that take advantage of a system designed to help.

Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

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■ Synchronet ■ Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com

I hate to say it, but its like they raise up idiots on purpose, just to qualify
for checks because there is learning issues or......... whatever will check the
boxes and make the checks come in.

Over the years, I never knew for certain that parents/families were doing
that, but I did catch on sometimes when I was younger than parents of other kids seemed to discourage their academic curiousity... i.e. they'd make fun
of them if they did something smart, moreso than they would if they did something dumb.

Its sad. And now, I wish I would have listened more.

I think everyone reaches a certain age where they wish they'd listened more about this or that. It is a symptom of getting older and wiser.


* SLMR 2.1a * A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man. -J.Springfield

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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dumas Walker to PAULIE420 on Fri Jan 22 2021 04:22 pm

I think everyone reaches a certain age where they wish they'd listened more about this or that. It is a symptom of getting older and wiser.

My parents never pushed for college, it was something I wanted to do. Neither of my parents have degrees but both had successful careers in defense and finance. As I've gotten older, I see what my parents did wrong with me and I am trying not to do the same with my children.

Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

---
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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dream Master to Dumas Walker on Fri Jan 22 2021 10:54 pm

Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dumas Walker to PAULIE420 on Fri Jan 22 2021 04:22 pm

I think everyone reaches a certain age where they wish they'd listened
more about this or that. It is a symptom of getting older and wiser.

My parents never pushed for college, it was something I wanted to do. Neither of my parents have degrees but both had successful careers in defense and finance. As I've gotten older, I see what my parents did wrong with me and I am trying not to do the same with my children.

well, it's important to go for something useful. i know a woman who spent a lot of time in college and she's just a car porter now.

i dropped out of college because of the program they had being fucking whacko in various ways and i needed to make money.

i have more skills than most college educated people and i'm just as smart or smarter. at my job i'd say that only like 5% of us have a brain. they hire these people that have all these degrees and they bomb out after 1 year.
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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dumas Walker to PAULIE420 on Fri Jan 22 2021 04:22 pm

Over the years, I never knew for certain that parents/families were doing that, but I did catch on sometimes when I was younger than parents of other kids seemed to discourage their academic
curiousity... i.e. they'd make fun
of them if they did something smart, moreso than they would if they did something dumb.

It is not only the parents. It is the other kids and, often, teachers.

It is a if society was trying to normaliz mediocrity.

--
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Hello Dream!

** On Thursday 21.01.21 - 22:40, Dream Master wrote to MRO:

i've seen people that love doing drugs just get disability.

It makes sense. Hell, alcoholism is considered a disability.

I know a fellow who clears about $4K/mo! with various disability
funding, old-age security, and gov't pension supplements, and
he's not even a Canadian citizen - just a landed immigrant.

He *is* in rather poor shape (being just barely 10 years older
then me), used to be a heavy smoker and drinker, and now needs
to be tied to an oxygen tank all the time.


--- OpenXP 5.0.48
* Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

Re: Re: Fraud
By: MRO to Dream Master on Sat Jan 23 2021 02:28 am

i have more skills than most college educated people and i'm just as smart or smarter. at my job i'd say that only like 5% of us have a brain. they hire these people that have all these degrees and they bomb out after 1 year.

Well if you can get hired and get some working experience, after a while your experience tends to be more important than your educational background. It seems to me a college education is often mainly to help get you started. If you have years of experience, then the degree you got years ago probably matters less than it did when right after you graduated.

Nightfox

I think everyone reaches a certain age where they wish they'd listened more >> about this or that. It is a symptom of getting older and wiser.

My parents never pushed for college, it was something I wanted to do. Neither >f my parents have degrees but both had successful careers in defense and financ
. As I've gotten older, I see what my parents did wrong with me and I am tryin
not to do the same with my children.

My father pushed for it. Mom less so. I don't think I would push a kid
into college unless they had a good idea of what they wanted to do with
their life. Pushing them in otherwise is just wasting money.

There are a few things I might be smarter at than my parents because they
were not educated in whatever it is or don't have experience with it.
Since I am one who believes that experience is often the better teacher,
there are still a lot of things they are the smart ones for , for sure.


* SLMR 2.1a * "The Metric System is the tool of the Devil!" - Granpa S

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■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

well, it's important to go for something useful. i know a woman who spent a lot
of time in college and she's just a car porter now.

Political Science? Humanities? Gender Studies? Performing Arts?

i dropped out of college because of the program they had being fucking whacko
various ways and i needed to make money.

I almost ran out of money and almost had to. They kept switching stuff
around and making it real difficult to get all of the last classes you
needed to graduate.


* SLMR 2.1a * Usually a man with flowers has deflowering in mind...

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Re: Re: Fraud
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sat Jan 23 2021 09:47 am

well, it's important to go for something useful. i know a woman who
spent a

lot

of time in college and she's just a car porter now.

Political Science? Humanities? Gender Studies? Performing Arts?

i think this was history and social studies.

i dropped out of college because of the program they had being fucking
whacko various ways and i needed to make money.

I almost ran out of money and almost had to. They kept switching stuff around and making it real difficult to get all of the last classes you needed to graduate.

yeah that's what i ran into. and there would be a course i would have to take and it would be gone and they didnt know when it would come back. and the classes were day and night. i have a life, i needed to make money, i was taking care of my son, and i didnt live in their bullshit world of weird protocols.
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Re: Fraud
By: Ogg to Dream Master on Sat Jan 23 2021 09:27 am

I know a fellow who clears about $4K/mo! with various disability
funding, old-age security, and gov't pension supplements, and
he's not even a Canadian citizen - just a landed immigrant.

Holy shit! See, I'd go nuts if I wasn't working. This guy has it made and he is doing nothing but mooching off the system.

Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

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■ Synchronet ■ Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com

It is a if society was trying to normaliz mediocrity.

I think that is exactly what they are trying to do. It is easier to
"level" the playing field by doing things to hamper the smarter kids (and
also the more successful adults) than it is to make any attempt to help
those who are in need.

The Democrats in the USA have taught us that.


* SLMR 2.1a * A restless eye across a weary room...

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■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

yeah that's what i ran into. and there would be a course i would have to take >nd it would be gone and they didnt know when it would come back. and the class
s were day and night. i have a life, i needed to make money, i was taking care >f my son, and i didnt live in their bullshit world of weird protocols.

The college I attended, a large state-run university, got into some trouble
a few years after I graduated for pulling stunts in order to get more money
out of their students. I was not surprised at all.


* SLMR 2.1a * ...a host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance...

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I know a fellow who clears about $4K/mo! with various disability
funding, old-age security, and gov't pension supplements, and
he's not even a Canadian citizen - just a landed immigrant.

That is part of the reason why I cannot figure out why some people want
that ability here. Canada is a beautiful country and most everyone speaks English. Just move up there, or lead your caravan up there. Why stop in
the USA where we don't already do all the things you want?


* SLMR 2.1a * If you chose not to decide, you still have made a choice!

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Re: Fraud
By: Dumas Walker to OGG on Sun Jan 24 2021 09:57 am

I know a fellow who clears about $4K/mo! with various disability
funding, old-age security, and gov't pension supplements, and
he's not even a Canadian citizen - just a landed immigrant.

That is part of the reason why I cannot figure out why some people want that ability here. Canada is a beautiful country and most everyone speaks English. Just move up there, or lead your caravan up there. Why stop in the USA where we don't already do all the things you want?

i dont think canada is that welcoming but i think we should put that caravan on a boat to canada with some film crews to ease it along :D
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Re: Fraud
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Sun Jan 24 2021 10:43 pm

That is part of the reason why I cannot figure out why some people want that ability here. Canada is a beautiful country
and most everyone speaks English. Just move up there, or lead your caravan up there. Why stop in the USA where we don't
already do all the things you want?

I've always been of the opinion that you should make your best reasonable effort to improve the conditions of your own country before heading out, but you do you, man. Do what the Buzzfeed readers said they would in 2016 and accept that this country is beyond saving in time.

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On 2021-01-25 12:13 p.m., Tortillaretreat wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that you should make your best reasonable effort to improve the conditions of your own country before heading out, but you do you, man. Do what the Buzzfeed readers said they would in 2016 and accept that this country is beyond saving in time.

Yes, how can you improve your country if your leaving it? If an
oppressor is to come you just leave and give him free range? It's like
not voting in an election and then whine about it's result.

I also get that maybe the country you live in change to a point where
your not recognizing yourself in it anymore, like being part of a
minority that would never have a voice, then yes, maybe moving somewhere
that is more in line with your values is a good choice.

But when we where hearing "If Trump win I move out!" really? Every 4
years your going to reassess where you going to live depending on who
will win the next election? That's how much you care about the country
that raised you? I've never heard that discourse from republicans at
least not as much. And what does it say about you are a new comer?

Like in the united states before the independence, people weren't happy
how things where ruled from England they seceded, people that weren't
happy with that moved be to UK or moved up north. They small town I'm
from was actually settled by loyalist (that's how we call them :-) ).

But my point is that you just don't simply leave. Your a majorities of
people that get oppressed, you fight, you protest. You just don't leave,
at least not without trying. I don't mean you have to use violence,
that's not my point. Canada didn't fire a shoot to gain independence,
but I guess the process can then be much slower and in some case
wouldn't simply work. Can't also say that US independence did not water
down UK stubbornness. It definitely made life easier for the others
colonies.

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That is part of the reason why I cannot figure out why some people want that ability here. Canada is a beautiful country and most everyone speaks
English. Just move up there, or lead your caravan up there. Why stop in the USA where we don't already do all the things you want?

i dont think canada is that welcoming but i think we should put that caravan o
a boat to canada with some film crews to ease it along :D

That was actually an unsaid part of my point. They are not that welcoming.
Most countries are not, but many in those countries (like Al in Canada)
and many here think the US should be.

Sort of like the EU. They wanted the Balkan states to be welcoming to
everyone coming across their borders in hopes that they'd stop there and
not come on into their countries.


* SLMR 2.1a * Life after death - is that Terminate and Stay Resident?

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