In the United States, there is a long-standing tradition - to the founding of the Republic - of denigrating outsiders and the established cultural or
racial groups feeling "threatened" that they are being "replaced" by these outsiders, biologically and numerically. That this is now called a 'conspiracy,' in my view, is to do so without appreciating the history of how we have marginalized outsiders before they finally integrated in the melting pot.

Whether it was the Irish of the 1920s, the Italians of the 1950s, or the Hispanics - there has always been resistance until finally there is a firm acceptance that there is more than brings us together than sets us apart. Ordinarily, the melting pot works if there is integration and, well, everyone "melts" into the new diverse identify of the United States.

Where I see the true problem is that "replacement" persists so long as each cultural identity expresses itself at the expense of the inclusive and diversive whole.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to All on Tue May 24 2022 09:56 am

In the United States, there is a long-standing tradition - to the founding o the Republic - of denigrating outsiders and the established cultural or racial groups feeling "threatened" that they are being "replaced" by these outsiders, biologically and numerically. That this is now called a 'conspiracy,' in my view, is to do so without appreciating the history of ho we have marginalized outsiders before they finally integrated in the melting pot.

Whether it was the Irish of the 1920s, the Italians of the 1950s, or the Hispanics - there has always been resistance until finally there is a firm acceptance that there is more than brings us together than sets us apart. Ordinarily, the melting pot works if there is integration and, well, everyon "melts" into the new diverse identify of the United States.

Where I see the true problem is that "replacement" persists so long as each cultural identity expresses itself at the expense of the inclusive and diversive whole.

A good example of not assimilating is having to push#1 for english and #2 for espanol. If you work in retail, speaking Spanish is a hiring point.
Mandarin, Bahasa, Tagalog, Yoruba, Hindi or German, not so much

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Kaelon wrote to All <=-

@MSGID: <628CE430.59740.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
In the United States, there is a long-standing tradition - to the
founding of the Republic - of denigrating outsiders and the established cultural or racial groups feeling "threatened" that they are being "replaced" by these outsiders, biologically and numerically. That this
is now called a 'conspiracy,' in my view, is to do so without
appreciating the history of how we have marginalized outsiders before
they finally integrated in the melting pot.

Whether it was the Irish of the 1920s, the Italians of the 1950s, or
the Hispanics - there has always been resistance until finally there is
a firm acceptance that there is more than brings us together than sets
us apart. Ordinarily, the melting pot works if there is integration
and, well, everyone "melts" into the new diverse identify of the United States.

Where I see the true problem is that "replacement" persists so long as each cultural identity expresses itself at the expense of the inclusive and diversive whole.

This is occuring outside of the United States. It is occuring throughout much of Western Europe, the UK, in parts of the Anglosphere. Not everything that happens in the world centres around what Americans think.

You also seem to be missing the point. Making certain countries "melting pots" melts the demographics of those countries. Do you see China, Kenya, Nigeria, Korea, Vietnam becoming "melting pots"?

Have you BEEN to London, Paris, Rotterdam, Marseilles, Birmingham, Amsterdam, Sydney or Melbourne?

You are just bringing up trite talking points that make no sense. So become some Irish came a century ago, that justifies wholesale replacement of peoples?

The fact is, your "ideas" are in conflict with the continued existence of an identifiable group. Perhaps YOU are comfortable with expressing political and social ideas which diminish and undermine identifiable groups, but such ideas have in the past been rightfully held as highly immoral crimes.

And don't use square quotes around legitmate terms. There is clear documented and observable evidence of replacement, and putting square quotes around "Threatened", as if people had no right to feel threatened by being melting potted out, is incredibly arrogant and patronising.


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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Moondog to Kaelon on Tue May 24 2022 03:19 pm

A good example of not assimilating is having to push#1 for english and #2 for espanol. If you work in retail, speaking Spanish is a hiring point. Mandarin, Bahasa, Tagalog, Yoruba, Hindi or German, not so much

Completely agree. As a U.S.-born Cuban-American, I was always taught by my family to master the English language (as they did), even though we retained our Spanish language and heritage as part of our historical past. People who do not assimilate and learn the language are intentionally deciding to put up barriers and not integrate into American society.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed May 25 2022 09:29 am

You also seem to be missing the point. Making certain countries "melting pots" melts the demographics of those countries. Do you see China, Kenya, Nigeria, Korea, Vietnam becoming "melting pots"?

Certainly not. These countries all have monolithic and oppressive cultures, where foreign populations are either brutally subjugated or placed in internment camps and truly become enslaved peoples or even worse - like the ethnically cleansed peoples of Western China, for example.

My basic point is that "replacement theory," as discussed in populist U.S. circles, is a racist ideology that is at odds with the entire historical trend of the American melting pot and identity as an integrating and welcoming society for immigrants. That it is applied to describe the fear that White Americans should have for every immigrant allowed into the country, as if that somehow displaces or "replaces" them by erasing their cultural representation, has no basis in American history.

There are countless examples of how welcoming immigrants and encouraging them to integrate and assimilate into American society was directly responsible for advancing the technological supremacy of the United States - from rescuing Jews from Germany's brutal holocaust leading directly to Jewish-Americans helping advance the Manhattan Project to defeat the Japanese, to encouraging the dispossessed and persecuted peoples of Eastern Europe being directly responsible for the creation of the modern American industrial state at the end of the 19th Century.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

You also seem to be missing the point. Making certain countries "melting pots" melts the demographics of those countries. Do you see China, Kenya, Nigeria, Korea, Vietnam becoming "melting pots"?

Certainly not. These countries all have monolithic and oppressive cultures, where foreign populations are either brutally subjugated or placed in internment camps and truly become enslaved peoples or even
worse - like the ethnically cleansed peoples of Western China, for example.

My basic point is that "replacement theory," as discussed in populist
U.S. circles, is a racist ideology that is at odds with the entire historical trend of the American melting pot and identity as an integrating and welcoming society for immigrants. That it is applied to describe the fear that White Americans should have for every immigrant allowed into the country, as if that somehow displaces or "replaces"
them by erasing their cultural representation, has no basis in American history.

There are countless examples of how welcoming immigrants and
encouraging them to integrate and assimilate into American society was directly responsible for advancing the technological supremacy of the United States - from rescuing Jews from Germany's brutal holocaust
leading directly to Jewish-Americans helping advance the Manhattan
Project to defeat the Japanese, to encouraging the dispossessed and persecuted peoples of Eastern Europe being directly responsible for the creation of the modern American industrial state at the end of the 19th Century. _____

How do you account for the same phenomenon elsewhere, outside of the US? Such as my home city?

We are not talking about an 'ideology', but something that is observably happening.

Sorry, as I've said, I've been to many cities, and SEEN the replacement. If you want, you can go to Paris, to London, to Birmingham, to Melbourne, to Brussels, to Marseilles, and see this for yourself.

We are not talking about abstract things like unfounded fear, ideology or ideas, but an observable and real change.

Again, the world doesn't revolve around what Americans think.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed May 25 2022 08:27 pm

How do you account for the same phenomenon elsewhere, outside of the US? Such as my home city?

See below.

Sorry, as I've said, I've been to many cities, and SEEN the replacement. If you want, you can go to Paris, to London, to Birmingham, to Melbourne, to Brussels, to Marseilles, and see this for yourself.

I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 years been traveling to Spain and France to visit family and friends. Europe has, at best, a mixed bag with assimilating populations; there is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, though being complicit as an Imperial power in Africa (see, especially, Algeria), has imposed cultural and legal restrictions on immigrants (such as the headscarf ban, schooling mandates) without also providing them with economic assistance and opportunity (such as language and skills training) that it has, in the case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigners who are French-people in waiting. In contrast, Spain's integration of Moroccans into Andalusia is very American in its melting-pot style approach.

In short - creating a melting pot has to be a proactive act of integrating a population. Reactively mistreating an immigrant population includes passing laws that restrict their cultural and religious values, isolating them from the economic and educational opportunities that would promote their integration and advancement, and, of course, blaming crackpot racist conspiracy theories that white people are being systematically replaced by non-whites. Research shows that these are nativist tropes, and that the underlying social and political behaviors actually create racial tension as per the above.

We are not talking about abstract things like unfounded fear, ideology or ideas, but an observable and real change.

Because Replacement Theory was invented as a consequence of France's post-colonial demographic failures, the best place to start is being educated on how France's own demographers and sociologists have rejected Renaud Camus' paranoid racist fantasies. I recommend you start with Jenkins, Cecil (2017). A Brief History of France. Little, Brown Book Group. PT342. ISBN 978-1-4721-4027-2.

Again, the world doesn't revolve around what Americans think.

I start with the United States because (a) this is where I was born and live, and can speak best about what is in the American political mainstream; and (b) the United States, despite its flirtations with xenophobia and nativism, is the world's most successful multicultural melting pot, and can provide examples both of how it is done well (the Irish, Italians, Caribbean Hispanics, Portuguese, etc.), and how it is done poorly (African Americans, Central and South Americans, Native Americans, etc.).
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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My basic point is that "replacement theory," as discussed in populist U.S. cir
es, is a racist ideology that is at odds with the entire historical trend of t
American melting pot and identity as an integrating and welcoming society for
mmigrants.

I think you are hitting a nail on the head without realizing it, though.
Yes, there are some who are racist that believe that any foreigner being brought into another country is "replacement" but, as you pointed out in another message, you fully understand the reason for assimilating, or
melting into, the American society.

I think the issue comes with the folks that you also described, who want
to be here but don't want to be a part of society, and some that even
expect society to change to their imported values. That is the
"replacement" that seems to be going on these days.

That it is applied to describe the fear that White Americans should h
ave for every immigrant allowed into the country, as if that somehow displaces
r "replaces" them by erasing their cultural representation, has no basis in Am
ican history.

It has no basis in history, but what about in the "right now"? Our
government seems to have no issues letting people in of certain
ethnicities, while others (most Asians) don't seem as welcome. Even their
lack of issues for most hispanics/latinos does not necessarily extend to
Cubans or Brazilians.

There are countless examples of how welcoming immigrants and encouraging them
integrate and assimilate into American society was directly responsible for a
ancing the technological supremacy of the United States - from rescuing Jews f
m Germany's brutal holocaust leading directly to Jewish-Americans helping adva
e the Manhattan Project to defeat the Japanese, to encouraging the dispossesse
and persecuted peoples of Eastern Europe being directly responsible for the cr
tion of the modern American industrial state at the end of the 19th Century.

The key words are "integrate and assimilate."


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Kaelon wrote to All <=-

Where I see the true problem is that "replacement" persists so long as each cultural identity expresses itself at the expense of the inclusive and diversive whole.

Some think if we did not abort as many children as we do, we don't need much immigration.
Its not exactly racist because we are also aborting many children of color as well.


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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Moondog on Tue May 24 2022 10:00 pm

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Moondog to Kaelon on Tue May 24 2022 03:19 pm

A good example of not assimilating is having to push#1 for english and #2 for espanol. If you work in retail, speaking Spanish is a hiring point. Mandarin, Bahasa, Tagalog, Yoruba, Hindi or German, not so much

Completely agree. As a U.S.-born Cuban-American, I was always taught by my arn the language are intentionally deciding to put up barriers and not integ _____
-=: Kaelon :=-

When I was a contractor working for American Electric Power, former CEO Mike P owers had a question and answer column on the intranet site called Open Mike.
Send in your questions, and he'll answer them. One employee at the Sotuh Tex as Project wrote in saying that after the company merger thye were not
allowed to speak Spanish on the worksite. Mie replied and told her that she was at lunch on her her break time, it's ok to speak whatever language you wan t. During business hours, a standard language should be observed, and
there's more employees outside the STP that will visit the site that do ot speak Spanish.

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Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed May 25 2022 08:27 pm

How do you account for the same phenomenon elsewhere, outside of the US? Such as my home city?

See below.

Sorry, as I've said, I've been to many cities, and SEEN the replacement. If you want, you can go to Paris, to London, to Birmingham, to Melbourne, to Brussels, to Marseilles, and see this for yourself.

I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 years been traveling to Spain and France to visit family and friends. Europe has, at best, a mixed bag with assimilating populations; there
is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, though being complicit
as an Imperial power in Africa (see, especially, Algeria), has imposed cultural and legal restrictions on immigrants (such as the headscarf
ban, schooling mandates) without also providing them with economic assistance and opportunity (such as language and skills training) that
it has, in the case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigners who are French-people in waiting. In
contrast, Spain's integration of Moroccans into Andalusia is very
American in its melting-pot style approach.

In short - creating a melting pot has to be a proactive act of
integrating a population. Reactively mistreating an immigrant
population includes passing laws that restrict their cultural and religious values, isolating them from the economic and educational opportunities that would promote their integration and advancement,
and, of course, blaming crackpot racist conspiracy theories that white people are being systematically replaced by non-whites. Research shows that these are nativist tropes, and that the underlying social and political behaviors actually create racial tension as per the above.

But the question is, WHY? Why is it that we are asked to partake in this social engineering? You are taking the need to do this at face value, based upon a very specific American ideology.

As I have pointed out, America is not the world (though it is incredibly arrogant and imperialistic, to be sure), and the 'melting pot' that your country has decided is its manifest destiny isn't necessarily a goal elsewhere.

You are taking it as a 'given' that we must become melting pots, and the issue is whether we do this succesfully or not. My argument is that the creation of the melting pot IS a moral hazard, regardless of whether it is done "successfully" or not.

If the theories are "crackpot theories", the please tell me, at what point can immigration in these countries stop?

What %ge does the white population need to drop to, in order for it be acceptable to change immigration policy so that it doesn't drop further? In ANY Western/European country?

We are not talking about abstract things like unfounded fear, ideology or ideas, but an observable and real change.

Because Replacement Theory was invented as a consequence of France's post-colonial demographic failures, the best place to start is being educated on how France's own demographers and sociologists have
rejected Renaud Camus' paranoid racist fantasies. I recommend you
start with Jenkins, Cecil (2017). A Brief History of France. Little,
Brown Book Group. PT342. ISBN 978-1-4721-4027-2.

There is an argument for every Western country. There are excuses for why England must become a melting pot, for why Australia must become one, for why Germany must become one, for why Italy must become one, etc, etc.

The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

Again, the world doesn't revolve around what Americans think.

I start with the United States because (a) this is where I was born and live, and can speak best about what is in the American political mainstream; and (b) the United States, despite its flirtations with xenophobia and nativism, is the world's most successful multicultural melting pot, and can provide examples both of how it is done well (the Irish, Italians, Caribbean Hispanics, Portuguese, etc.), and how it is done poorly (African Americans, Central and South Americans, Native Americans, etc.). _____
-=: Kaelon :=-

The USA is falling apart, a dying empire, and I hear routinely about talk of Civil War. From out here, it looks like a clusterf*%k, mired in racial and identity issues, tearing each other apart for matters of "diversity" and "inclusion".

What %ge does the white population need to drop to, in order for it be acceptable to change immigration policy so that it doesn't drop further? In ANY Western/European country?

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Wed May 25 2022 03:18 pm

I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 years been traveling to Spain and France to visit family and friends. Europe has, at best, a mixed bag with assimilatin
populations; there is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, though being complicit as an Imperial power in Africa (see, especially, Algeria), has imposed cultural and legal restricti
on immigrants (such as the headscarf ban, schooling mandates) without also providing them with economic assistance and opportunity (such as language and skills training) that it has, in the
case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigners who are French-people in waiting. In contrast, Spain's integration of Moroccans into Andalusia is very American in
its melting-pot style approach.

I can't talk much about France, but regarding integration of Moroccans into Andalucía...

The areas with the most Moroccans tend to be the areas where people votes the most for parties with anti-immigration programs. This alone suggests integration is not going that well. The
Barcelona area is turning to Detroit-lite because ethnic gangs have started mugging people in broad daylight after they started soaking immigrants in without a plan as to what to do with them.

Meanwhile, areas with Russian immigrants don't have anti-Russian parties claiming for them to be kicked out despite the fact many of those Russians are NOT trying to integrate (living in
Russian neighbourhoods and villages, to the point you would say some towns are Russian).

I personally think integration is overhyped. What a lot of people seems to want from immigrants is to come in, forget their culture and adopt the local customes. I think that for a lot of
groups that is just not going to happen. In fact, wanting that to happen is anti-diverse (ie. if you want to import Moroccans and strip their culture away from them so they are just
Spaniards you are a modern day colonialist imposing your culture on others).

The ironic thing is that many African immigrants come with ideas that are unnaceptable by Spanish standards, such as partaking in genital mutilation. In order for them to fit in you have to
engineer them and turn them into something they are currently not.

On the other hand, I cannot think of clear examples that made Irish, Italian and Polish immigrants unnaceptable to American Standards. Meanwhile, a Spaniard would not be an acceptable immigrant
for Saudi Arabia because the first thing a Spaniard would do is try to produce beer in some cellar, which for Arab authorities is a very unacceptable breach of social manners. In fact they tend
to confine Spaniards into special camps over there.

My point is that some cultures and worldwiews are compatible and others are not. It is easy to brag that your nation is importing Italians successfully without issues when Italians are similar
to your own culture. However, if you want to get people impressed you will have to import people with very divergent values (such as cultures who partake in arranged marriages, imposed class
systems, feudal policies, ritual mutilation and so on). I bet you won't be able to, and if you do, it would be by turning those people into something else...


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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Dumas Walker to KAELON on Wed May 25 2022 06:06 pm

Dumas,

I think we're 100% on the same page of this view.

I think you are hitting a nail on the head without realizing it, though. Yes, there are some who are racist that believe that any foreigner being brought into another country is "replacement" but, as you pointed out in another message, you fully understand the reason for assimilating, or melting into, the American society.

I think the issue comes with the folks that you also described, who want
to be here but don't want to be a part of society, and some that even
expect society to change to their imported values. That is the "replacement" that seems to be going on these days.

Completely agree. I was always taught, as a U.S.-born Cuban-American, to be proud of my culture, but prouder even still of being an American. I credit that mindset as being widely pervasive in the Cuban-American Community: we all know English fluently, we are all politically and civically active in American society, and in most cases, there's really no interest in "returning to Cuba" (far from it). Perhaps we better fit the mold of the classic immigrant population for the United States - those seeking a better life for themselves and their children, and to start a new future in the American Dream.

It has no basis in history, but what about in the "right now"? Our government seems to have no issues letting people in of certain
ethnicities, while others (most Asians) don't seem as welcome. Even their lack of issues for most hispanics/latinos does not necessarily extend to Cubans or Brazilians.

Yes. I think insular communities emerge for a variety of reasons, but we have an obligation as a welcoming country to provoke and persuade these communities to open up, engage, and integrate and assimilate into the American melting pot. Their traditions, cultures, world-views, etc., make America stronger. But they must, you know, "melt."

The key words are "integrate and assimilate."

100%.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is
not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.


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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Thu May 26 2022 01:39 pm

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Wed May 25 2022 03:18 pm

I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 yea populations; there is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, thoug on immigrants (such as the headscarf ban, schooling mandates) without als case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigner its melting-pot style approach.

I can't talk much about France, but regarding integration of Moroccans into

The areas with the most Moroccans tend to be the areas where people votes th Barcelona area is turning to Detroit-lite because ethnic gangs have started

Meanwhile, areas with Russian immigrants don't have anti-Russian parties cla Russian neighbourhoods and villages, to the point you would say some towns a

I personally think integration is overhyped. What a lot of people seems to w groups that is just not going to happen. In fact, wanting that to happen is Spaniards you are a modern day colonialist imposing your culture on others).

The ironic thing is that many African immigrants come with ideas that are un engineer them and turn them into something they are currently not.

On the other hand, I cannot think of clear examples that made Irish, Italian for Saudi Arabia because the first thing a Spaniard would do is try to produ to confine Spaniards into special camps over there.

My point is that some cultures and worldwiews are compatible and others are to your own culture. However, if you want to get people impressed you will h systems, feudal policies, ritual mutilation and so on). I bet you won't be a

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I get the impression that some European immigrants were greeted poorly
because they dressed and spoke differently, had funny sounding names, and
some practices from the old country may have seemed alien or backward to Americans that were a generation or more separated from the old countries.

During the late 1800's and early 20th century, several families
"Americanized" their names. Some had no choice when Ellis Island opened, and whoever documented your arrival wrote your name down as he heard it. For example, a last name such as d'Augustino may have been written down as Diaugustino. Names such as Braun became Brown, or Otto became Ott. This was all done to differentiate new folks from the locals.

Another issue that immigrants had to worry about was employment and finding
a place to live. Imagine selling everything you had to get a trip to the US, then have trouble getting a job or read a contract or legal agreement because you can't speak english very well? My mothers's father came over to the US
as a teen with his family from Poland. Depending on who I'd speak with, some would say they were Russian, as if the border had moved or land changed hands when they left around the time of the Russian Revolution. They didn't have enough money to take everyone, so one of the older brothers of my grandfather stayed behind, in hope they will send him a letter of where they found a
home. A couple of years went by, and his brothers and sisters reached
marrying age and began having families and land of their own in Southwest Michigan. They purchased a ticket and sent it along with money to the
brother left behind,and when he arrived a the port to board the ship, he saw several men gambling, and figured he could come to the US much richer than he was. He ended up losing most of his money and had to give up his ticket.
all he could afford is a trip tot he US in steerage, the bottom hold where the y kept the livestock. When he arrived in the US, he was processed through Ellis Island. Having no money (and no address of where to go)he stayed on
the Island until he could figure a way to contact his family. One day a man comes out to the Island, asking if anyone has experience working of a farm
and picking fruits and vegetables. He figures he will get a job, then look
for his family. He was placed on a boat and received a trip around the Great Lakes to the city of Benton Harbor, Michigan. From there he would board a tru ck every morning and taken to a farm or orchard. He rented a place in Saint Joseph, MI across the bridge from Benton Harbor. One day coming home from work, he was walking across the bridge, and in the opposite lane was one of
his brothers bringing a truckload of grain to the grain bins Benton Harbor. It turned out he ended 20 miles away from where the rest of the family was living.

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Dumas Walker wrote to BORAXMAN <=-

@MSGID: <628FE257.25045.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <628F5AB7.9038.dove-deb@pharcyde.org>

The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration,
it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

"Diversity" just means non-white. That is explicit now. People refer to suburbs where there is significant number of non-European/non-Anglos as "diverse", even if they are all Indian. There are people of a "diverse" background where they really mean non-Anglo, and generally, non-European.

I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.

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Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

@MSGID: <628FC97F.6879.dove-debate@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <628EAB28.59762.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Boraxman on
Wed May 25 2022 03:18 pm

I go on business every month to Europe and Australia, and for over 30 years

b

een traveling to Spain and France to visit family and friends. Europe has, at best, a mixed bag with assimilatin

populations; there is an uneven melting pot. Case in point: France, though

be

ing complicit as an Imperial power in Africa (see, especially,
Algeria), has imposed cultural and legal restricti

on immigrants (such as the headscarf ban, schooling mandates) without also

pr

oviding them with economic assistance and opportunity (such as language and skills training) that it has, in the

case of Marseilles, created a parallel society of un-integrated foreigners

wh

o are French-people in waiting. In contrast, Spain's integration of Moroccans into Andalusia is very American in

its melting-pot style approach.

I can't talk much about France, but regarding integration of Moroccans into Andaluc¡a...

The areas with the most Moroccans tend to be the areas where people
votes the most for parties with anti-immigration programs. This alone suggests integration is not going that well. The Barcelona area is
turning to Detroit-lite because ethnic gangs have started mugging
people in broad daylight after they started soaking immigrants in
without a plan as to what to do with them.

Meanwhile, areas with Russian immigrants don't have anti-Russian
parties claiming for them to be kicked out despite the fact many of
those Russians are NOT trying to integrate (living in Russian neighbourhoods and villages, to the point you would say some towns are Russian).

I personally think integration is overhyped. What a lot of people seems
to want from immigrants is to come in, forget their culture and adopt
the local customes. I think that for a lot of groups that is just not going to happen. In fact, wanting that to happen is anti-diverse (ie.
if you want to import Moroccans and strip their culture away from them
so they are just Spaniards you are a modern day colonialist imposing
your culture on others).

The ironic thing is that many African immigrants come with ideas that
are unnaceptable by Spanish standards, such as partaking in genital mutilation. In order for them to fit in you have to engineer them and
turn them into something they are currently not.

On the other hand, I cannot think of clear examples that made Irish, Italian and Polish immigrants unnaceptable to American Standards. Meanwhile, a Spaniard would not be an acceptable immigrant for Saudi Arabia because the first thing a Spaniard would do is try to produce
beer in some cellar, which for Arab authorities is a very unacceptable breach of social manners. In fact they tend to confine Spaniards into special camps over there.

My point is that some cultures and worldwiews are compatible and others are not. It is easy to brag that your nation is importing Italians successfully without issues when Italians are similar to your own
culture. However, if you want to get people impressed you will have to import people with very divergent values (such as cultures who partake
in arranged marriages, imposed class systems, feudal policies, ritual mutilation and so on). I bet you won't be able to, and if you do, it
would be by turning those people into something else...

Even then, when cultures are similar, the people are similar, it often fails. Take Yugoslavia for example.

History is littered with ethnic conflict. Proximity and diversity leads to conflict. Our "leaders" are creating future conflict, just so some companies can use cheap labour.

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--- DUMAS WALKER wrote --- > The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become > diverse.

And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it
is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

Colonialism?


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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: boraxman to Kaelon on Thu May 26 2022 08:45 pm

But the question is, WHY? Why is it that we are asked to partake in this social engineering? You are taking the need to do this at face value, based upon a very specific American ideology.

The fact that you even pose this question reflects that you view the world - and your country - in racially monolithic terms. If you are interested in advancing one race at the cost of another race, then simply embrace your racist or racialist identity, rather than bristling at the term. It is, simply put, nativist (at best) and racist (at worst) to state that immigration is a form of "social engineering," when in fact, countries that endure immigration are complicit in the factors that led up to immigration being "forced" upon it.

As I have pointed out, America is not the world (though it is incredibly arrogant and imperialistic, to be sure), and the 'melting pot' that your country has decided is its manifest destiny isn't necessarily a goal elsewhere.

You are taking it as a 'given' that we must become melting pots, and the issue is whether we do this succesfully or not. My argument is that the creation of the melting pot IS a moral hazard, regardless of whether it is done "successfully" or not.

If you want to halt immigration altogether (which seems to be what you are advocating here - you don't want a "melting pot," and you also don't want non-whites in your country (again, a racist perspective) - then you need to confront the demographic failures of your country. It starts with birth rate (and this is controversial) but until your country generates 2,100 births for every 1,000 women, it in effect cannot replace its population to stay population neutral. Most Western Countries have abysmal birth rates (born, primarily, out of economic factors - not societal ones), and so, you should consider making it more economically appealing for men and women to procreate. Parental leave, social safety nets, childcare, and broader incentives for training and enabling populations are multi-generational investments. But as the Nordic countries will show, they can be successfully applied.

If the theories are "crackpot theories", the please tell me, at what point can immigration in these countries stop?

Your agenda is pretty clear. You view immigration as a threat to the cultural identity of your country; there is certainly merit in discussing how countries that are incapable of building true melting pots are threatened by unassimilating populations (like France's muslims, or Germany's turkic populations). But Western European countries are generally complicit in the factors that led to the uptick in immigration to begin with: such as France's imperial ambitions in Africa leading to vast destabilization of the magreb and sub-saharan region, or Italy's brutal occupation of Ethiopia and interference in Lybia. Europeans haven't been willing to pay reparations to those countries, or invest in African development, and so you have a situation where entire populations are trapped in failing states that the Europeans raped and pillaged as recently as the 1960s.

What %ge does the white population need to drop to, in order for it be acceptable to change immigration policy so that it doesn't drop further? In ANY Western/European country?

I think you have a beef with your country's legislative policies, and so you should take it up in the political process. Some countries have effectively halted or redirected immigration (see: Austria and Hungary) only to discover massive shortfalls in talent, population, and/or tax-bases. White Europeans haven't generally taken the steps necessary to create monolithically racial states the way that the Asians culturally do, but again, I would point to the Nordic example, which emphasizes integration and assimilation but discourages immigration through raising birthrates of its own population.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Thu May 26 2022 01:39 pm

The areas with the most Moroccans tend to be the areas where people votes the most for parties with anti-immigration programs. This alone suggests integration is not going that well. The Barcelona area is turning to Detroit-lite because ethnic gangs have started mugging people in broad daylight after they started soaking immigrants in without a plan as to what to do with them.

I appreciate the view. Though my family immigrated to the United States from Cuba, all sides of my family are traced to Spain (Malaga, Sevilla, and Galicia, predominantly), and so I take a deep interest in the Spanish experiment of the modern state.

My general impression of Barcelona and Catalunya in general, is that the suppression of Catalan identity - seen as a threat to the overarching Spanish identity - is a far more serious threat to Spain's cultural values than the permissible importation of Moroccans into the region. Nevertheless, the formation of Spain consists of largely unassimilated regional powers from the middle ages which worked cooperatively (and today, autonomously) for the idea of the modern Spanish State. This only works if the idea of an overarching Spain prevails, and while it certainly was forced upon the population through Monarchy and Fascism, today, the democratic experiment is producing uneven results that have nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with failed assimilation of languages and cultures.

I personally think integration is overhyped. What a lot of people seems to want from immigrants is to come in, forget their culture and adopt the local customes. I think that for a lot of groups that is just not going to happen. In fact, wanting that to happen is anti-diverse (ie. if you want to import Moroccans and strip their culture away from them so they are just
Spaniards you are a modern day colonialist imposing your culture on others).

The ironic thing is that many African immigrants come with ideas that are unnaceptable by Spanish standards, such as partaking in genital mutilation. In order for them to fit in you have to engineer them and turn them into something they are currently not.

It's easy to forget that in the United States, Mediterraneans were seen as sub-human aliens who threatened the secular state for one primary reason: Catholicism. In fact, it wasn't until the 1960s (after Vatican II) that Roman Catholicism became generally acceptable in political life - and John F. Kennedy's election, which was also controversial given his religion and ethnicity, was a key factor behind this acceptance.

But the Irish and the Italians were both seen to be monarchists and theocrats, beholden to the Pope, and a threat to the identity of the American Secular State. Because they weren't protestant, and did not come from a true protestant culture like the English, Scottish, Germans, Dutch, and Scandinavians - they were largely seen with suspicion. They also, unlike the French and Spanish, never had the benefit of historical connection with the creation of the U.S. There was widespread "racial" violence against Irish and Italian people throughout the 1800s and early 1900s, primarily because of religion which was seen as truly alien to the American idea of life. This only abided when it became clear that Irish and Italians would assimilate into the American way of life by openly pledging allegiance to the United States, and rejecting the Pope's material authority. And this was highly controversial, at the time, but now is a given pretty much everywhere in the world.

I raise this example because failed integration and assimilation stems from not being able to create a common framework of values that immigrants can relate to and prioritize over their old identity.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Dumas Walker to BORAXMAN on Thu May 26 2022 04:19 pm

The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

I would argue that there are very few White/Western countries that aren't facing demographic crisis that, unfortunately, makes them beholden to immigrants for all sorts of reasons (population replacement, chief among them, but so, too, are economic needs). The United States also has this problem with Central and Southern Americans -- in sharp contrast to the fully-assimilated Latin / Caribbean Americans -- because it relies upon Central and Southern Americans to serve as an economic under-class and labor force population.

These demographic crises are caused by a lot of factors, but chief among them are the creation of imperial dependencies upon non-native populations for a variety of reasons. Conversely, White countries that never engaged in imperial ambitions and thus became dependent (economically or numerically) on non-White populations -- such as Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, and Norway -- aren't called racist for maintaining their white culture. They are just seen as not having been complicit in the factors that led to the collapse of their own demographic stability and the brutalization of foreign populations.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to boraxman on Fri May 27 2022 09:31 am

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: boraxman to Kaelon on Thu May 26 2022 08:45 pm

But the question is, WHY? Why is it that we are asked to partake in this social engineering? You are taking the need to do this at face value, ba upon a very specific American ideology.

The fact that you even pose this question reflects that you view the world - and your country - in racially monolithic terms. If you are interested in advancing one race at the cost of another race, then simply embrace your rac or racialist identity, rather than bristling at the term. It is, simply put nativist (at best) and racist (at worst) to state that immigration is a form "social engineering," when in fact, countries that endure immigration are complicit in the factors that led up to immigration being "forced" upon it.

Immigration is not a form of social engineering but it is often used as a tool for engineering policies.

In its most basic form, once a political party figures out that he can get a particular group of immigrants, it is likely to buy them out using the money of the rest of the tax payers. At that point the tax payers will feel cheated.

Morocco is known for using immigration as a political threat. They use immigration as a bargaining chip during lots of negotiations. "Do as I say or I will let all the immigrants who come to Morocco in their way to Spain flow freely through your borders."

Also I find accusing countries that take immigrants of being the cause of the flow of immigrants to be outright victim shaming. The Califato also raped and pillaged the folks of the area which today is Spain and Portugal but they didn't get a mass migration from Europe as a result.



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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Fri May 27 2022 09:42 am

My general impression of Barcelona and Catalunya in general, is that the suppression of Catalan identity - seen as a threat to the overarching Spanis identity - is a far more serious threat to Spain's cultural values than the permissible importation of Moroccans into the region. Nevertheless, the formation of Spain consists of largely unassimilated regional powers from th middle ages which worked cooperatively (and today, autonomously) for the ide of the modern Spanish State. This only works if the idea of an overarching Spain prevails, and while it certainly was forced upon the population throug Monarchy and Fascism, today, the democratic experiment is producing uneven results that have nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with failed assimilation of languages and cultures.

Spain's downfall is Hispanoamerica's: we lack juridical security and therefore nobody creates any business intended to last, because laws may change at any time and illegalize your business without prior notice. ONly excaptions are the people rich enough to buy politicians as usual. We are not at the Argentinian level but give us a decade and we will get there.

Catalonia is an interesting case because the idea of a Catalonian identity has been mostly manufactured for political reasons. You often see this in other smaller regions, where a party rescues a forgotten language from the 8th century and some old customes, proclaims those to be the heritage of a given area, and starts trying to get people to join around those concepts and build a group which differentiates itself from the rest of the country. The main difference here is that Catalonian politicians have been successful unlike, say, Asturians or Leonens regionalist groups.

I certainly would be more sympathetic towards Catalonians if they weren't defacto nazies. I am fine if a region wants to vote to leave - I am a firm believer that power must be atomized - but when the people needing the voting spends so much political time proclaiming the ethnical superiority of Catalonians over everybody else, it is hard to support that people.

Catalonia is far from oppresed, come to think of it. They have more powers transfered to them than other Autonomies, they use the Catalonian language in the Administration nearly without restrictions, they operate their own TDL and they have their own police and tax force. Their representation in Congress is also much higher than their actual size grants. Nevertheless, they spend a considerable effort trying to convince foreigners that Spain is a big bad that rapes Catalonians and steals their stuff.

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"Diversity" just means non-white. That is explicit now. People refer to suburbs where there is significant number of non-European/non-Anglos as "diverse", even if they are all Indian. There are people of a "diverse" background where they really mean non-Anglo, and generally, non-European.

Yes, that is explicit. Here, the "diverse" person could be more of a multi-generational American than the white person, but they are the one
that makes it more diverse.

I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.

I am not sure about down there but, here, I'd not count on it. ;)


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--- DUMAS WALKER wrote --- > The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become > diverse.

And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it
is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

Colonialism?

That is certainly one, although I tend to think of that as being reserved
for when a white government is sending settlers into a non-white area.


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I get the impression that some European immigrants were greeted poorly because they dressed and spoke differently, had funny sounding names, and some practices from the old country may have seemed alien or backward to Americans that were a generation or more separated from the old countries.

The Irish were poorly treated in many areas, as were some Eastern Europeans
and Italians.


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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: the doctor to DUMAS WALKER on Fri May 27 2022 05:13 pm

--- DUMAS WALKER wrote --- > The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become > diverse.

And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

Colonialism?

that's different than just immigration.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Fri May 27 2022 04:16 pm

I get the impression that some European immigrants were greeted poorly because they dressed and spoke differently, had funny sounding names, and some practices from the old country may have seemed alien or backward to Americans that were a generation or more separated from the old countries.

The Irish were poorly treated in many areas, as were some Eastern Europeans and Italians.

well from what i know about it, in my area in the midwest, there were a lot of wars going on between the various types of immigrants. there were actual ethnic gangs. i think on the east coast is there the irish were treated poorly.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to boraxman on Fri May 27 2022 09:31 am

non-whites in your country (again, a racist perspective) - then you need to confront the demographic failures of your country. It starts with birth rat (and this is controversial) but until your country generates 2,100 births fo every 1,000 women, it in effect cannot replace its population to stay population neutral. Most Western Countries have abysmal birth rates (born,

The problem I have with that argument is that the Western countries taking immigrants from poor countries in a massive way and which have internal demographic crisis usually have a demographic crisis because they cannot cope with more population.

Sure, in Spain we could keep on multiplying like rabbits. However, we could not maintain our offspring in an environment considered acceptable by current Spanish standards. There is simply no demand for more people to exist.

If you try to think of some business to start in Spain you soon realize that every need you could fullfil is already satisfied by an existing infrastructure. The unemployed to vacancies ratio is not favorable either. This translates in lots of mini-phenomena which occur in society and makes people not have more children, because Spaniards don't want to have children which will end up living in poverty.

Meanwhile lots of South Americans tend to produce children first and wonder what to do with them later. I have had this conversation with Chilenans and Argentinians so I don't think this is a reckless affirmation. Spain has some pro-natality policies in place which attempt to cover the most common expenses in raising a child, but Chilenans seem to produce a kid, use the natality funds for their own purposes, and then raise their kid in a regime which Spaniards would consider unaceptable poverty (such as without using diapers or anything).

Personally, if I loved Spanish culture I would be concerned because the meassures the government is taking for helping make more native Spaniards are being used for helping make more native outsiders. Put in that perspective, that *looks* like a replacement conspiracy. Keep in mind that for most nationalists, having the papers won't make you a Spaniard: having gazpacho and Holy Week parties and system of ethics which is reminiscent of Roman Law kind of does. Nationalists then don't recognize importing people whose idea of justice is hanging thieves in the square as a way of saving their culture... Importing talibans, for example, would make the Spanish Nation-State demographically sustainable but would not make Spanish culture sustainable.

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Kaelon wrote to boraxman <=-

But the question is, WHY? Why is it that we are asked to partake in this social engineering? You are taking the need to do this at face value, based upon a very specific American ideology.

The fact that you even pose this question reflects that you view the
world - and your country - in racially monolithic terms. If you are interested in advancing one race at the cost of another race, then
simply embrace your racist or racialist identity, rather than bristling
at the term. It is, simply put, nativist (at best) and racist (at
worst) to state that immigration is a form of "social engineering,"
when in fact, countries that endure immigration are complicit in the factors that led up to immigration being "forced" upon it.

Now you are resorting to name-calling?? It was only a matter of time before you trotted out that old canard.

If you want to halt immigration altogether (which seems to be what you
are advocating here - you don't want a "melting pot," and you also
don't want non-whites in your country (again, a racist perspective) -
then you need to confront the demographic failures of your country. It starts with birth rate (and this is controversial) but until your
country generates 2,100 births for every 1,000 women, it in effect
cannot replace its population to stay population neutral. Most Western Countries have abysmal birth rates (born, primarily, out of economic factors - not societal ones), and so, you should consider making it
more economically appealing for men and women to procreate. Parental leave, social safety nets, childcare, and broader incentives for
training and enabling populations are multi-generational investments.
But as the Nordic countries will show, they can be successfully
applied.

OK, so we have one "excuse" for pushing open border and mass immigration. The reasoning here is utter BS. If the population does shrink, that is *our* problem. It doens't excuse replacement, and certainly does NOT give the government licence to, um, replace the children it thinks we should have had with others.

Your agenda is pretty clear. You view immigration as a threat to the cultural identity of your country; there is certainly merit in
discussing how countries that are incapable of building true melting
pots are threatened by unassimilating populations (like France's
muslims, or Germany's turkic populations). But Western European
countries are generally complicit in the factors that led to the uptick
in immigration to begin with: such as France's imperial ambitions in Africa leading to vast destabilization of the magreb and sub-saharan region, or Italy's brutal occupation of Ethiopia and interference in Lybia. Europeans haven't been willing to pay reparations to those countries, or invest in African development, and so you have a
situation where entire populations are trapped in failing states that
the Europeans raped and pillaged as recently as the 1960s.

And this is the other "excuse"...

These ALWAYS get trotted out. It is a very predicable move. The sad thing is, you think this justifies immoral actions. If you believe Europeans should pay reparations, then push for that. That is a seperate issue.

I think you have a beef with your country's legislative policies, and
so you should take it up in the political process. Some countries have effectively halted or redirected immigration (see: Austria and Hungary) only to discover massive shortfalls in talent, population, and/or tax-bases. White Europeans haven't generally taken the steps necessary
to create monolithically racial states the way that the Asians
culturally do, but again, I would point to the Nordic example, which emphasizes integration and assimilation but discourages immigration through raising birthrates of its own population.

Except one can not do this because people like you will say that anyone who even THINKS this way is a, *gasp*, racist.

In short, the argument goes like this
- Because of reasons X, Y, Z, (it doens't matter, any reason will do), your country must open up its borders, become a melting pot, and if you aren't happy with a level of immigration which will make you a minority then you're just a racist.

You didn't answer my question, which means there is no answer. With so called "anti-racists", there never, ever is an answer. I've been asking this for nearly 20 years and your responses are EXACTLY like all the other anti-racist ideologies. Because to answer the question is to admit that at some point, mass immigration must be scaled back. If you don't scale it back, replacement is the logical mathematical outcome.

(note MASS immigration, not all immigration).

The factuality of the birthrates in Western nations is not relevant. The issue is the MORAL problem of enacting and promoting and supporting policies which lead to the decline of an identifiable group. You've done everything possible to avoid this, from name calling, to trying to find "reasons" to not confront the issue, or simply arguing that I shouldn't care. If I were not White, you probably wouldn't have had such audacity to brush of real concerns like that.

If you believe that identifiable ethnic groups can be degraded and displaced by policies, then just say you agree with it and such policies are justifiable.

What is happening is the result of policies, of ideas, of what people are pushing. They must be held morally accountable for it.

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Kaelon wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

@MSGID: <62910054.59783.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
@REPLY: <628FE257.25045.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Dumas Walker to BORAXMAN on
Thu May 26 2022 04:19 pm

The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

I would argue that there are very few White/Western countries that
aren't facing demographic crisis that, unfortunately, makes them
beholden to immigrants for all sorts of reasons (population
replacement, chief among them, but so, too, are economic needs). The United States also has this problem with Central and Southern Americans
-- in sharp contrast to the fully-assimilated Latin / Caribbean
Americans -- because it relies upon Central and Southern Americans to serve as an economic under-class and labor force population.

These demographic crises are caused by a lot of factors, but chief
among them are the creation of imperial dependencies upon non-native populations for a variety of reasons. Conversely, White countries that never engaged in imperial ambitions and thus became dependent (economically or numerically) on non-White populations -- such as Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, and Norway -- aren't called racist for maintaining their white culture. They are just seen as not having been complicit in the factors that led to the collapse of their own
demographic stability and the brutalization of foreign populations.

'
The Nordic countries would indeed be called racist for maintaining their culture. There is not a single White/European country which an "anti-racist" would find acceptable if they eschewed mass immigration in order to maintain their national character ethnically and culturally.

Ask someone who is "against racism" to say which one, they won't. Believe me, I've asked countless of them over many, many years.

Switch it to another peoples, a 'diverse' peoples, shall we say, and the attitude changes.

By the way, the Arab world was imperialistic, as were the Mongols, and if you think that the first nations of Australia, America, or the peoples in Sub-Saharan Africa lived in peace and harmony, you have a skewed view of history. They didn't attain the same level of imperialism not because of their virtues, but lack of technical capacity to do so.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri May 27 2022 01:17 pm

Also I find accusing countries that take immigrants of being the cause of the flow of immigrants to be outright victim shaming. The Califato also raped and pillaged the folks of the area which today is Spain and Portugal but they didn't get a mass migration from Europe as a result.

I think the Caliphate paid dearly for its expansion into Europe through countless Crusades, the Spanish occupation of Morocco, the British intervention in Egypt and Africa, and France's subjugation of the Mediterranean throughout the early 1800s. Turkey's eventual capitulation as Europe's "sick man" sort of finishes this cycle, but let us not pretend that there hasn't been population give-and-take borne from the imperial ambitions of European states.

If Europe is genuinely interested in changing the story that it has with migrant populations, it should look inward at its own social and demographic policies:

1. Improve demographic and economic conditions for its native population, to get to at least 2,100 births per 1,000 people. Most of the West is well below basic replacement figures, and is reliant upon immigration to meet basic population economic needs.

2. Provide better integration and assimilation services: from language and skills training, to social welfare programming, and criminal justice reform to aggressively manage immigrant populations.

3. Re-think its foreign aid policies to ensure that countries that it borders are stable and successful.

The United States has a mixed record on all of these traits, as well, and for political (partisan) and economic reasons, it favors an unstable Central and South America but prefers a stable and successful Caribbean.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri May 27 2022 01:37 pm

I certainly would be more sympathetic towards Catalonians if they weren't defacto nazies. I am fine if a region wants to vote to leave - I am a firm believer that power must be atomized - but when the people needing the voting spends so much political time proclaiming the ethnical superiority of Catalonians over everybody else, it is hard to support that people.

I don't necessarily agree that regions of Spain (or any country, for that matter) should be allowed to just "vote" to leave; elections are messy business, and they rarely actually reflect the overriding will of the population (see, for example, Brexit and even the Scottish Independence Referenda). However, I do think that if things are serious, people should be prepared to expend treasure -and- blood to achieve their stated political aims. I think it highly unlikely, if not impossible, that Catalonians will be interested in the business of secession to actually see it through. However, much like the Basques, they have legitimate economic grievances that can be addressed by Madrid to keep them engaged. Almost no one talks about Basque separatism now, because of how effectively Madrid intervened economically in el Pais Basco.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Sat May 28 2022 05:25 am

Sure, in Spain we could keep on multiplying like rabbits. However, we could not maintain our offspring in an environment considered acceptable by current Spanish standards. There is simply no demand for more people to exist.

If there were no economic opportunity for foreigners (i.e., Moroccans and other non-Spanish nationals), then there would not be a migrant crisis. It is clear that, whatever the Spanish standards permit, there is an under-belly economy that appeals to migrants, who conversely have nothing even remotely approaching that opportunity in their home countries. In the United States, our agricultural and services industries are highly reliant upon foreign immigrant labor, as is our technology and specialized talent sectors - similarly reliant upon foreign specialized labor - in order to meet the economic demands that we have. Europe, as a whole, is a beacon of untapped opportunity in the eyes of the suffering migrant populations.

Spain could start to invest in technology, automation, and mass commercialization to make much of its territory inhabitable. Unlike much of the Continent, Spain has nearly two-thirds of its physical terrain untapped and undeveloped. It represents huge development opportunities for natural resources extraction, real estate, commercial and industrial development, just to name a few.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sat May 28 2022 06:50 pm

Now you are resorting to name-calling?? It was only a matter of time before you trotted out that old canard.

Firstly, it's not "name-calling" to accurately describe what you are openly describing - preferring people of one race to the people of another race, or creating policies that advance the primacy of one racial group at the expense of another - as a "racialist" or "racist" policy. I am not ascribing moral value to racism, but I think it's important to understand that, unless if you establish an autoarky in your economic system and effectively can close yourself off from the rest of the world, a racialist policy in how you manage your population has wide-ranging demographic and diplomatic implications.

I will also say that to have a genuine discussion about the underlying social, economic, and political causes of immigration, one has to frankly understand and discuss the nuances of the policies and practices of the State that have led to the circumstance where it becomes anywhere from permissive of to reliant upon foreign populations in order to function.

You seem to rant about foreign populations in your country - whatever the case may be - without acknowledging or being interested in discussing the factors and complicity of your own country and its people in creating the circumstances that led these foreign populations to your shores to begin with. You're trotting out nativist tropes like "we're being forced to open our borders" (by whom? why?). The truth is often times messier and far less convenient. You have foreigners in your country because your political and economic leaders need them. And things aren't changing because your view, frankly, is in the minority.

I suggested a few basic tracks that could help change the nature of the conversation: improve the birth rate of your population, ensure that your neighbors are successful and prosperous states, and create a better regime of assimilation and integration in order to prevent foreign populations from effectively dilluting your national identity. But you don't seem interested in discussing the specifics here, and just want to villainize people for being in your country.

I am 99.8% Caucasian, by the way, so I am not exactly advancing a non-White view here, given that I am White myself and generally privileged anywhere in the Western World. I am, however, acknowldging that a nativist and racialist perspective often does not appreciate a sense of accountability or ownership for the creation of the current circumstance. And in your country, there are policies and practices in place that require an under-class of foreigners to properly service your demographic and economic needs. Simply put.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sat May 28 2022 06:55 pm

By the way, the Arab world was imperialistic, as were the Mongols, and if you think that the first nations of Australia, America, or the peoples in Sub-Saharan Africa lived in peace and harmony, you have a skewed view of history. They didn't attain the same level of imperialism not because of their virtues, but lack of technical capacity to do so.

All civilizations engage in imperialism as a natural part of their social, economic, and political expression. There are very few exceptions of inherently passive or pacifist populations (because most if not all of them were subjugated, assimilated, or annihilated). However, there is always cause-and-effect, and the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates paid dearly for their expansion across the world in the form of countless Crusades that ended their empires, and since the collapse of the Ottoman Hegemony in the 1600s, widespread subjugation, colonization, and global interference - from League of Nations mandates to modern day United Nations peacekeeping operations.

Europe, by and large, is still dealing with the consequences of its colonization of Africa, which as I mentioned elsewhere, only effectively terminated in the 1960s. If you've read Douglas C. North's "Institutions, Institutional Change, and Economic Performance" (strongly recommended, if you haven't), you can appreciate that in order for new organizational stability to emerge, institutional predictability requires at least 2-3 generations to resolve outstanding political, economic, and social issues. Europe has another 10-25 years to contend with before these matters become clearer, and the European Union and its fate will factor largely in the emergence of a true Pan-European Identity, but so far, the picture looks mixed, at best.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

Dumas Walker wrote to BORAXMAN <=-

@MSGID: <628FE257.25045.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <628F5AB7.9038.dove-deb@pharcyde.org>

The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

"Diversity" just means non-white. That is explicit now. People refer to suburbs where there is significant number of non-European/non-Anglos as "diverse", even if they are all Indian. There are people of a "diverse" background where they really mean non-Anglo, and generally, non-European.

I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.

I'd like to hear what they say/

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Sat May 28 2022 10:16 am

2. Provide better integration and assimilation services: from language and skills training, to social welfare programming, and criminal justice reform aggressively manage immigrant populations.

3. Re-think its foreign aid policies to ensure that countries that it border are stable and successful.

The United States has a mixed record on all of these traits, as well, and fo political (partisan) and economic reasons, it favors an unstable Central and South America but prefers a stable and successful Caribbean.
_____

Results are a mixed bag as summarizer earlier. Not to mention that giving

immigrants free training at the expense of the tax payer will automatically make the tax payer ask why should tax payers cover those expenses when the training of natives themsleves is so lackluster to begin with.

The job of a Prime Minister is to defend the interests of his country's

population, not to be the saviour of the world and solve the issues of their neighbors, *specially* if neighbors and regular collaborators are not trustworthy or outright backstabby. South American countries begging for rich countries to invest in infrastructure for them and then attempting to nationalize the infrastructure without offering compensation are a worn out trope already, for example.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Sat May 28 2022 10:22 am

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri May 27 2022 01:37 pm

I certainly would be more sympathetic towards Catalonians if they weren't defacto nazies. I am fine if a region wants to vote to leave - I am a fir believer that power must be atomized - but when the people needing the voting spends so much political time proclaiming the ethnical superiority Catalonians over everybody else, it is hard to support that people.

I don't necessarily agree that regions of Spain (or any country, for that matter) should be allowed to just "vote" to leave; elections are messy business, and they rarely actually reflect the overriding will of the population (see, for example, Brexit and even the Scottish Independence Referenda). However, I do think that if things are serious, people should b prepared to expend treasure -and- blood to achieve their stated political ai I think it highly unlikely, if not impossible, that Catalonians will be interested in the business of secession to actually see it through. However much like the Basques, they have legitimate economic grievances that can be addressed by Madrid to keep them engaged. Almost no one talks about Basque separatism now, because of how effectively Madrid intervened economically in Pais Basco.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

I think any group has the right to decide to leave any political asociation they don't feel comfortable being part of. This includes nations and states.

I also think that Catalonian politicians don't want secession either since they are geting many benefits from being part of Spain. Specifically, their oversized representation in Congress grants that many national policies will require their cooperation, and as such they will put a price for their cooperation. This is a vast source of profit for Catalonian politicians.

While I agree the National Government is sucking Basques and Catalonians dry via taxes, that is definetively a problem every Spaniard faces (and not just them). Since we are a Socialistic Democracy we tend to oppress certain people more than others based on how much money we may extract from them. I don't think they are facing more grievances than the ones fitting a Socialdemocrat regme.

We don't talk much about Basque separatism anymore because Basques don't tend to prance arround describing themselves as a superior ethnic group. Also their region got heavily industrialized by Fascist policies back in the day so it is a bit hard for them to argue they are being raped by Spain when a lot of their industry was created with Statewide funds. The Catalonian situation is going down the drain very fast because Catalonian economy is tanking (mostly due to firms relocating out of Catalonia out of fear, increased ethnic crime and the like). They get the headlines because they are in crisis, they hold a lot of political power in national politics, and they are kind of desperate.

Seriously, I have detected a lot of Catalonian refugees escaping to the province I live in because Catalonia is becoming unsustainable. Firms doing exports and imports often refuse to sign contracts if the wares go through Catalonian ports because they don't trust Catalonian authorities (and this I know from people in the field). Catalonians tend to blame the rest of Spain because firms prefer to export potatoes via Valentian ports but they don't blame themselves because they let their ports fall into the hand of institutionalized mafias, for example.

It is easy for Catalonian politicians to blame others for their messes. I know because my own region has a regionalist/nationalist movement and the modus operandi is just the same. We have this tendency to create our own problems and scare our youth and investors away. Then we cry and blame some nearby province or Autonomy because they are conspiring and getting all our youngs and firms. What we never ever do is stop for a minute and wonder what are we doing so wrong that people needs to run away from here.


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Re: Spain
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Sat May 28 2022 10:28 am

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Sat May 28 2022 05:25 am

Sure, in Spain we could keep on multiplying like rabbits. However, we cou not maintain our offspring in an environment considered acceptable by current Spanish standards. There is simply no demand for more people to exist.

If there were no economic opportunity for foreigners (i.e., Moroccans and ot non-Spanish nationals), then there would not be a migrant crisis. It is cle that, whatever the Spanish standards permit, there is an under-belly economy that appeals to migrants, who conversely have nothing even remotely approach that opportunity in their home countries. In the United States, our agricultural and services industries are highly reliant upon foreign immigra labor, as is our technology and specialized talent sectors - similarly relia upon foreign specialized labor - in order to meet the economic demands that have. Europe, as a whole, is a beacon of untapped opportunity in the eyes o the suffering migrant populations.

Spain could start to invest in technology, automation, and mass commercialization to make much of its territory inhabitable. Unlike much of the Continent, Spain has nearly two-thirds of its physical terrain untapped undeveloped. It represents huge development opportunities for natural resources extraction, real estate, commercial and industrial development, ju to name a few.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

Most African immigration moves into Spain on their way somewhere else, actually.

We also have many policies in place which benefit immigrants, such as the Minimal Vital Income (which is to say you get paid a salary thought to cover your minimum expenses for no reason other than existing). There is a lot of economic oportunity for immigrants but a whole lot of it is underground economy (immigration mafias and the like) or exploiting advantages provided by the administration.


Regarding exploitation of natural resources, at this point it is nearly a formalized policy that we don't exploit our natural resources due to
ecological concerns (ie. we don't open new mines or extract oil from new deposits because that is considered unecological)

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Sat May 28 2022 10:45 am

Europe, by and large, is still dealing with the consequences of its colonization of Africa, which as I mentioned elsewhere, only effectively terminated in the 1960s. If you've read Douglas C. North's "Institutions, Institutional Change, and Economic Performance" (strongly recommended, if yo haven't), you can appreciate that in order for new organizational stability emerge, institutional predictability requires at least 2-3 generations to resolve outstanding political, economic, and social issues. Europe has anot 10-25 years to contend with before these matters become clearer, and the European Union and its fate will factor largely in the emergence of a true Pan-European Identity, but so far, the picture looks mixed, at best.
_____

To be honest I don't know which consequences would those be.

China has taken upon itself to turn a number of African countries into Chinesse protectorates anyway. My link to one of my providers is from Kennya and she outright says they lived better when they worked for the English. Kennya and a number of other countries is paying a lot of resources they don't have in
order for the Chinesse to come in and build infrastructure for them. There are Chinnesse movies in which they acknowledge the fact and they portray themselves as saviors of poor people. It is not like they need anything from the Common Wealth now since it is obvious they have a new master.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Sat May 28 2022 10:45 am

Europe, by and large, is still dealing with the consequences of its colonization of Africa, which as I mentioned elsewhere, only effectively terminated in the 1960s. If you've read Douglas C. North's "Institutions,

Spaniards often deal with claims from foreigners that we screwed their countries and that their problems are our fault. It gets tiresome for a number of reasons.

First of all, if a given region has belonged to a country for more than a century and then it splits out, they cease being of concern of the original country for good or bad. If they had three meals a day under Spanish domination and then they must resort to eating stones after leaving, claims that food scarcity is Pizarro's fault come across as cringeworthy.

This is specially true with countries that separated more than one century ago. Even if it was true that the country that controlled them to begin with was The Big Bad and utterly destroyed the region, the failure to refloat their country after they walk away is theirs. Germany bounced back from being reduced to rubble _twice_ in a matter of decades just in the 20th Century. Spain bounced back after trying to self destruct with its Civil War in a matter of 50 years. Convincing people that your country is in the mud because it was an English or Spanish colony 100 or 150 years ago is a hard sell because countries are known to rebuild themselves in much less time.

In the case of Spanish colonies it gets specially tricky because the usual claim is that Spaniards owe them reparation funds because our ancestors turned their regions into protectorates. The funny part is that _our_ ancestors stayed in mainland Spain. Meanwhile, Conquistadores got to South America and mixed with the natives, to the point the Conquistadores that supposedly raped South America are actually _their_ ancestors and not ours.

Relatedly, something that always amazes me is how much hate Spaniards get from their ex-colonies, given that Spain was a relatively benevolent tyrant. There were bills of rights enacted to the rights of natives were recognized, Spaniards mixed with the local population instead of going Aparheid and enforcing racial and cultural separation. Meanwhile the English Empire ran slave rings, got natives in reserves, enforced cultural and ratioal segregation, and lots of their ex-colonies have cordial relations with the UK. What the Fucking Fuck.

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Re: Spain
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Sat May 28 2022 09:54 pm

Regarding exploitation of natural resources, at this point it is nearly a formalized policy that we don't exploit our natural resources due to ecological concerns (ie. we don't open new mines or extract oil from new deposits because that is considered unecological)

Considering how little of Spain's natural resources have been properly developed, and how much of Spain's geography remains essentially unpopulated, this is a huge missed opportunity. I can understand ecological concerns moving to the forefront of an over-developed country, but a lot of Spain remains agrarian and, well, empty. And, further, the techniques that exist today are far more ecological than the techniques that existed in the 1970s and 1980s.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

@MSGID: <62925E64.59799.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
@REPLY: <6291E3FA.23209.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
Sat May 28 2022 06:50 pm

Now you are resorting to name-calling?? It was only a matter of time before you trotted out that old canard.

Firstly, it's not "name-calling" to accurately describe what you are openly describing - preferring people of one race to the people of
another race, or creating policies that advance the primacy of one
racial group at the expense of another - as a "racialist" or "racist" policy. I am not ascribing moral value to racism, but I think it's important to understand that, unless if you establish an autoarky in
your economic system and effectively can close yourself off from the
rest of the world, a racialist policy in how you manage your population has wide-ranging demographic and diplomatic implications.

I will also say that to have a genuine discussion about the underlying social, economic, and political causes of immigration, one has to
frankly understand and discuss the nuances of the policies and
practices of the State that have led to the circumstance where it
becomes anywhere from permissive of to reliant upon foreign populations
in order to function.

You seem to rant about foreign populations in your country - whatever
the case may be - without acknowledging or being interested in
discussing the factors and complicity of your own country and its
people in creating the circumstances that led these foreign populations
to your shores to begin with. You're trotting out nativist tropes like "we're being forced to open our borders" (by whom? why?). The truth is often times messier and far less convenient. You have foreigners in
your country because your political and economic leaders need them.
And things aren't changing because your view, frankly, is in the
minority.

I suggested a few basic tracks that could help change the nature of the conversation: improve the birth rate of your population, ensure that
your neighbors are successful and prosperous states, and create a
better regime of assimilation and integration in order to prevent
foreign populations from effectively dilluting your national identity.
But you don't seem interested in discussing the specifics here, and
just want to villainize people for being in your country.

I am 99.8% Caucasian, by the way, so I am not exactly advancing a non-White view here, given that I am White myself and generally
privileged anywhere in the Western World. I am, however, acknowldging that a nativist and racialist perspective often does not appreciate a sense of accountability or ownership for the creation of the current circumstance. And in your country, there are policies and practices in place that require an under-class of foreigners to properly service
your demographic and economic needs. Simply put. _____

The "preference" you are alluding to is common the world over. You are trying to pathologise it, by using loaded language such as "racialism" and the like. Your argument rests upon an assumption that humans either have no inbuilt preference, or that any preference they may have is wrong. The issue with this is that all peoples of the world, for the most part, there are exceptions, have an interest in their own culture, their own community, their own nation. That nation may not be the nation-state, but to suggest the Han Chinese, Jews, Punjabis, Kurds, Maoris, Australian Aboriginals have no higher motive or instinct to protect their own above others is just odd and flies in the face of what we observe. This is as absurd as suggesting that it is 'nepotistic' (or insert some other loaded smear-term) for me to be more concerned about my childrens future than some randon children in my suburb, let another another city, nation or continent.

Calling such common, understandable and acknowledged preferences "racialist" or "racist" is an argumentative tactic used to pathologise, specifically for one people, that which is understood as normal elsewhere in order to support morally dubious ideologies.

Secondly, the discussion about birtrate, colonialism, and the other issues that you brought up are worthy of nuanced discussion, but not now. The reason being is that while we may agree more than you realise on the analysis of these, it is *specifically* their use as justification for mass immigration. We know they are used as justifications for this, because they are always brought up, just as you decided to bring them up. They are standard "talking points". To change the nature of the conversation, as you desired, is to draw discussion away from the central point, which is whether it is morally problematic or not, to enact, support and by certain means, entrench policies and practicies which jeaopardize an identifable group.

My view is simple. That is immoral. It is immoral to use this as a "solution" to a problem, whether it is the "race" problem, the "birthrate" problem or the "colonialism" problem.

This is not about evading responsibility, it is about taking responsibility. The policies which, as you say, "require an under-class of foreigners to properly service your demographic and economic needs" are just as much a problem as any other. Such policies and practices are not ones I agree with. The need for the Capitalist machine to bring in a constant supply of labour is not something I support, nor do I support exploitation, or, as you allude to, some type of racial supremacy. Such practices always backfire, and yes, we DO bear responsibility, but we must face up to what we are doing.

I don't think moaning about "colonialism" and the degradation of other nations while simultaneously arguing that it doesn't matter if they ARE degraded is useful.

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Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

@MSGID: <62925FD0.59800.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
@REPLY: <6291E3FA.23210.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on
Sat May 28 2022 06:55 pm

By the way, the Arab world was imperialistic, as were the Mongols, and if you think that the first nations of Australia, America, or the peoples in Sub-Saharan Africa lived in peace and harmony, you have a skewed view of history. They didn't attain the same level of imperialism not because of their virtues, but lack of technical capacity to do so.

All civilizations engage in imperialism as a natural part of their
social, economic, and political expression. There are very few
exceptions of inherently passive or pacifist populations (because most
if not all of them were subjugated, assimilated, or annihilated).
However, there is always cause-and-effect, and the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates paid dearly for their expansion across the world in the form
of countless Crusades that ended their empires, and since the collapse
of the Ottoman Hegemony in the 1600s, widespread subjugation, colonization, and global interference - from League of Nations mandates
to modern day United Nations peacekeeping operations.

Europe, by and large, is still dealing with the consequences of its colonization of Africa, which as I mentioned elsewhere, only
effectively terminated in the 1960s. If you've read Douglas C. North's "Institutions, Institutional Change, and Economic Performance"
(strongly recommended, if you haven't), you can appreciate that in
order for new organizational stability to emerge, institutional predictability requires at least 2-3 generations to resolve outstanding political, economic, and social issues. Europe has another 10-25 years
to contend with before these matters become clearer, and the European Union and its fate will factor largely in the emergence of a true Pan-European Identity, but so far, the picture looks mixed, at best.

Agreed, and we are still yet to come to terms with the blowback. The ruling classes need for power, expansion and prestige in the long run seems zero sum. Thank you for the recommendation, and despite my objections against a system of one one free flow of people, that doesn't also come with a blindness to problems that "we" have created, and the follies and blowback from our own (speaking for the modern Wests here), misadventures and crimes. There are many on the right who want to shut down any recognition or reconciliation, which is not something I subscribe to. While I personally (and most others) are not personally guilty, we need to acknowledge the flaws in our own systems, which still exist to a large degree. We are STILL imperialistic and supremacist, still plundering the 'global south', but doing it in a different manner so we can pretend we are no longer racist or unenlightened.

But, this reckoning should not come at a demographic costs. Such costs are permanent, long lasting and punitive on future generations, and unlike many who wax lyrical about a future "mixed" world, I think such fantasies are folly, and mostly deleterious. It is one thing to ask a people to rightfully compensate those who have been wronged, but I beleive, quite firmly, that the primary motives for demographic change are 1) exploitation of the population as "human capital" and 2) a desire for revenge, or "an eye for an eye".

If addresssing the inequties of the past and present was done in a manner which did not post an existential threat to peoples, I think we'd get more consensus and understanding on the matter and make futher progress. As it is now, people are, rightfully, seeing those who want to address issues of colonialism, etc, as enemies, precisely because they position themselves as such.


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Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-

@MSGID: <62927001.39556.dove-deb@cavebbs.homeip.net>
@REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

Dumas Walker wrote to BORAXMAN <=-

@MSGID: <628FE257.25045.dove-deb@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <628F5AB7.9038.dove-deb@pharcyde.org>

The common theme is that if the country is White/Western, it MUST become diverse.

And if it is a non-white country that has too much white immigration, it is not called diversity, it is called something derogatory.

"Diversity" just means non-white. That is explicit now. People refer to suburbs where there is significant number of non-European/non-Anglos as "diverse", even if they are all Indian. There are people of a "diverse" background where they really mean non-Anglo, and generally, non-European.

I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.

I'd like to hear what they say/

I'll find a way to ask without threatening my job. Politically Correct types get very skeptical of people who deviate from mindless parroting of their propaganda. People who think are a threat. It is quite an oppressive environment.


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Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

@MSGID: <6291F88A.6902.dove-debate@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6290FCF0.59781.dove-deb@vert.synchro.net>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to boraxman on
Fri May 27 2022 09:31 am

non-whites in your country (again, a racist perspective) - then you need to confront the demographic failures of your country. It starts with birth rat (and this is controversial) but until your country generates 2,100 births fo every 1,000 women, it in effect cannot replace its population to stay population neutral. Most Western Countries have abysmal birth rates (born,

The problem I have with that argument is that the Western countries
taking immigrants from poor countries in a massive way and which have internal demographic crisis usually have a demographic crisis because
they cannot cope with more population.

Sure, in Spain we could keep on multiplying like rabbits. However, we could not maintain our offspring in an environment considered
acceptable by current Spanish standards. There is simply no demand for more people to exist.

If you try to think of some business to start in Spain you soon realize that every need you could fullfil is already satisfied by an existing infrastructure. The unemployed to vacancies ratio is not favorable
either. This translates in lots of mini-phenomena which occur in
society and makes people not have more children, because Spaniards
don't want to have children which will end up living in poverty.

The "dropping birthrates is a problem" is only a problem because of our current economic system. We could address this by economic means, more optimal distribution of wealth, better allocation of resource and labour. All these solutions are preferable to the vasty most disruptive and problem-ridden solution of mass migration. In short, these problems exist to maintain particular economic arrangements for a few.

In Australia, we dramatically ramped up immigration in the early 2000s. It was a significant increase, but there was no corresponding 'boom'. Infrastricture became stretched, we started running out of space, hospital beds, etc. House prices started to rise (though for other reasons too). Wages have been stagnant, the cost of living increasing relative to them. Companies became lazy with hiring because there was always a steady stream of brown people to man the factory floor.

The 'low birthrate' scare was just that, demographers extrapolating figures in the 80s and 90s and predicting doom, as experts always do.

Australia shut off immigration during the pandemic, and despite the cries of doom and gloom should we lower it from pundits, we kept on going. We now know that this argument that we need to maintain 200K+ people coming in a year to survive is bluff.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.

At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.

Nightfox

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Sun May 29 2022 12:10 pm

was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.

i don't think that's a law, it's probably a rule their leadership came up with. It's flat out racist.

I can't tollerate racism in the workplace. it's bad for everyone.
I worked at a place that was like a 1950's timewarp and had many issues with racism.

They were even sued for it and I got in trouble for complaining about them not hiring good people of color in certain departments. Their solution would be to get a handful of unworthy blacks and give them a push into a high paying office job. That's even more stupid and racist.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sun May 29 2022 04:39 pm

Calling such common, understandable and acknowledged preferences "racialist" or "racist" is an argumentative tactic used to pathologise, specifically for one people, that which is understood as normal elsewhere in order to support morally dubious ideologies.

I'm hardly being argumentative to correctly define the term that you are using to describe your preference. You wish to prioritize one race over another (namely, "White" people, as you have identified them). That is the very definition of racialist politics: the prioritization of one race over the others. Do not blame me for making it pathological - blame the Third Reich for taking racialism to the extreme by murdering over 6 million Jews all in the interests of their "pure" Aryan race. It's unfortunate that racial preferences, when they prioritize the numerically dominant race at the expense of the minority, cannot be discussed in nuance; it is a slippery slope that other countries have demonstrated lead to genocide. And there have been countless examples since Nazi Germany - from the Khmer Rouge to Serbian Nationalists. It is a cornerstone of hate, and the first step towards holocaust. Perhaps this is why diversity policies cannot realistically be dissented against; there is no example of a scenario where this dissent does not ultimately turn violent.

Secondly, the discussion about birtrate, colonialism, and the other issues that you brought up are worthy of nuanced discussion, but not now. The reason being is that while we may agree more than you realise on the analysis of these, it is *specifically* their use as justification for mass immigration. We know they are used as justifications for this, because they are always brought up, just as you decided to bring them up. They are standard "talking points". To change the nature of the conversation, as you desired, is to draw discussion away from the central point, which is whether it is morally problematic or not, to enact, support and by certain means, entrench policies and practicies which jeaopardize an identifable group.

Why not now? I think you follow up precisely with why it's better to discuss social, political, and economic causes that have led to a general zero-tolerance in the West towards racialist policies. I don't think it's changing the nature of the conversation: it is the very conversation that needs to be had. What led Australia to institute its policies of multiculturalism and diversity? Clearly, there were social, political, and economic ones that led to this consensus. To instead blame "outsiders" for this, or suggest there is some sort of "Great Replacement" conspiracy - which, again, has been widely disproven by every serious demographer and sociologist - is refusing to take responsibility for the problems that your society is contending with.

My view is simple. That is immoral. It is immoral to use this as a "solution" to a problem, whether it is the "race" problem, the "birthrate" problem or the "colonialism" problem.

I have suggested various ways to address your demographic and economic failures without moving towards immigration. You do not want to discuss them, and instead just want to blame non-Whites (somehow?), when it's clearly an inherent quality of Western Civilization to embrace divergent viewpoints, diverse perspectives, and seek out to assimilate talent and skills outside of their own borders.

Considering Australia's origin story as the ultimate British Penal Colony for people deemed by the British Crown to be "deviant" and unacceptable to the Anglo-Saxon norm - whether the criminal justice system, or simply socio-economic undesirables - it is disappointing that you do not embrace your country's origin story more patriotically.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Sun May 29 2022 04:52 pm

Agreed, and we are still yet to come to terms with the blowback. The ruling classes need for power, expansion and prestige in the long run seems zero sum. Thank you for the recommendation, and despite my objections against a system of one one free flow of people, that doesn't also come with a blindness to problems that "we" have created, and the follies and blowback from our own (speaking for the modern Wests here), misadventures and crimes. There are many on the right who want to shut down any recognition or reconciliation, which is not something I subscribe to. While I personally (and most others) are not personally guilty, we need to acknowledge the flaws in our own systems, which still exist to a large degree. We are STILL imperialistic and supremacist, still plundering the 'global south', but doing it in a different manner so we can pretend we are no longer racist or unenlightened.

I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very "recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.

But, this reckoning should not come at a demographic costs. Such costs are permanent, long lasting and punitive on future generations, and unlike many who wax lyrical about a future "mixed" world, I think such fantasies are folly, and mostly deleterious. It is one thing to ask a people to rightfully compensate those who have been wronged, but I beleive, quite firmly, that the primary motives for demographic change are 1) exploitation of the population as "human capital" and 2) a desire for revenge, or "an eye for an eye".

I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries, as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints, other than to be the pawns of greater powers.

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Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-

@MSGID: <6293C53B.27982.dove_dove-deb@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" being European, but not Anglo.

At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the
company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO
mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it
was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give
a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The
CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that
if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.

Nightfox

I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.


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Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

Calling such common, understandable and acknowledged preferences "racialist" or "racist" is an argumentative tactic used to pathologise, specifically for one people, that which is understood as normal elsewhere in order to support morally dubious ideologies.

I'm hardly being argumentative to correctly define the term that you
are using to describe your preference. You wish to prioritize one race over another (namely, "White" people, as you have identified them).
That is the very definition of racialist politics: the prioritization
of one race over the others. Do not blame me for making it pathological
- blame the Third Reich for taking racialism to the extreme by
murdering over 6 million Jews all in the interests of their "pure"
Aryan race. It's unfortunate that racial preferences, when they
prioritize the numerically dominant race at the expense of the
minority, cannot be discussed in nuance; it is a slippery slope that
other countries have demonstrated lead to genocide. And there have
been countless examples since Nazi Germany - from the Khmer Rouge to Serbian Nationalists. It is a cornerstone of hate, and the first step towards holocaust. Perhaps this is why diversity policies cannot realistically be dissented against; there is no example of a scenario where this dissent does not ultimately turn violent.

You keep assuming that the current status quo, government policy to allow large scale immigration, is the 'natural' position and that somehow it is me which is enacting a policy.

Europe isn't European because they kicked all the Africans and Asians out. You have things backwards here. The move towards "diversity" is the policy, not the other way around.

You keep trying to deny there is policy, when clearly, immigration policy, as well as the ideological push towards "diversity" and the "melting pot" is cleary a deliberate goal.

You don't get to push for a goal, then claim that those who say your goals are destructive are the ones with wacky ideas. You need to at least disprove those claims. You sound like a Climate Change denier, trying to argue that people who believe it is happening have fallen into a conspiracy. It is happening because it is observed to be happening.

In the 50s to the 70's there was a great liberalising of immigration policy. The fact that people talk about it, and what it would do means people were aware of what they were doing.

Claiming that opposing a program of mass immigration would lead to a "holocaust" is absolutely laughable. You do realise that the countries which fought AGAINST the Nazi's had restrictive immigration policies? Australia literally had a White Australia policy, and we fought AGAINST Nazism. Would you be aware that I had a relative from Southern Europe who happened to live in Germany during the war, and found them even more tolerant of her than Australians?

So try again. South Korea is Korean because they didn't open their borders, not because they turned into Nazis.

Why not now? I think you follow up precisely with why it's better to discuss social, political, and economic causes that have led to a
general zero-tolerance in the West towards racialist policies. I don't think it's changing the nature of the conversation: it is the very conversation that needs to be had. What led Australia to institute its policies of multiculturalism and diversity? Clearly, there were
social, political, and economic ones that led to this consensus. To instead blame "outsiders" for this, or suggest there is some sort of "Great Replacement" conspiracy - which, again, has been widely
disproven by every serious demographer and sociologist - is refusing to take responsibility for the problems that your society is contending
with.

No, the "zero-tolerance" in the West is due to ideology. It was a narrative constructed by people who had a vision of society, who pathologised what was normal and equated any criticism of their policies or goals as Nazism.

It's a cheap tactic that sadly worked. I never blamed "outsiders" and I said the "Great Replacement" is based on observation of demographic changes, which people admit and gloat about, but dissapears the moment it needs to for arguments sage.

Are these changes occuring, or not? And if they are occuring, at what point do we get to say "Stop, we have enough diversity". You need to answer these questions.

At what point to Britons get to scale back immigration?

I have suggested various ways to address your demographic and economic failures without moving towards immigration. You do not want to
discuss them, and instead just want to blame non-Whites (somehow?),
when it's clearly an inherent quality of Western Civilization to
embrace divergent viewpoints, diverse perspectives, and seek out to assimilate talent and skills outside of their own borders.

Considering Australia's origin story as the ultimate British Penal
Colony for people deemed by the British Crown to be "deviant" and unacceptable to the Anglo-Saxon norm - whether the criminal justice system, or simply socio-economic undesirables - it is disappointing
that you do not embrace your country's origin story more patriotically.

If you cannot accept as legitimate a desire for self-preservation, or to consider this view valid, then there is no room for discussion. You cannot discuss concerns with someone who considers those concerns evil. They may be wrong, but you haven't demonstrated that at all

At what point to the British, or French, get to scale back immigration and not get called racist for it??



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Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very
"recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right
are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire
to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such
as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the
inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting
some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.

This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for
demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a
la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries,
as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The
Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not
been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to
sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark,
have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints,
other than to be the pawns of greater powers.

The Third Reich would never have triumphed long term because it was based on a Great Man (figuratively speaking) and had an unsustainable ideology.

The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would find yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking against the regime, than if you were married to a black person.

The narrative that the war/fight was about racism is a post-hoc rationalise by the West to justify demographic changes by leadership. No one back then was stupid enough to conflate the Nazi's specific racial ideas with restricted immigration. That confusion, which you are spreading, came later.

At what point do the British or French get to say that immigration should be curtailed? When they are less then 50%, 40%, 30%?

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:45 pm

You keep trying to deny there is policy, when clearly, immigration policy, as well as the ideological push towards "diversity" and the "melting pot" is cleary a deliberate goal.

I disagree that this is the goal. You ascribe racialist intent to a demographic policy, because you see the world in racial terms. I see the world in geopolitical terms, and as I describe elsewhere and here, the policies we have for immigration are numerical in origin: they are economic and they are demographic. If there were enough White immigrants, for example, willing to accept the economic and demographic circumstances of immigrating to France or Britain, I assure you, they would be taken.

"Diversity," as a sociopolitical argument, is a way of managing the outcomes of the goal. It's really simple: this is all about numbers. The largest (i.e., most populous and geographically expansive / resource rich) nation-states are the most prosperous and powerful on the planet. Conversely, nation-states with shrinking populations or with ecologically or geographically challenged circumstances, are looking at a certain geopolitical destiny as a second-rate (if not subjugated) power.

That's the goal here.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm

This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

I think the process is largely unstoppable, not without a real replacement to the solution to the problem - which I have argued repeatedly is demographic in origin. If Britain were to surpass 2,100 births for every 1,000 women, it would no longer be in demographic crisis within one generation. China and Korea can impose immigration restrictions because it has a demographic crisis in the other direction -- too many people, not enough resources to maintain them.

The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would find yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking against the regime, than if you were married to a black person.

This is a new tangent, and I am happy to debate it, but there is vast evidence that shows that the policy of the Third Reich - beyond what it publicly espoused in documentation - was racialist in origin. Every decision made during the Second World War, from electing not to complete Operation Sea Lion against the British, turn its attention to Russia and the expansive East, or to divert critical manufacturing resources to hasten the shipping of Jews to the concentration camps in the final year of the war, were all premised upon the real aim - what Himmler would later state "even if we lose, future generations will laud us for our achievement" - which was to depopulate the continent of non-Aryans.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Sun May 29 2022 06:00 pm

I'm hardly being argumentative to correctly define the term that you are usi to describe your preference. You wish to prioritize one race over another (namely, "White" people, as you have identified them). That is the very definition of racialist politics: the prioritization of one race over the others. Do not blame me for making it pathological - blame the Third Reich f taking racialism to the extreme by murdering over 6 million Jews all in the interests of their "pure" Aryan race. It's unfortunate that racial preferenc when they prioritize the numerically dominant race at the expense of the minority, cannot be discussed in nuance; it is a slippery slope that other countries have demonstrated lead to genocide. And there have been countless examples since Nazi Germany - from the Khmer Rouge to Serbian Nationalists. is a cornerstone of hate, and the first step towards holocaust. Perhaps thi is why diversity policies cannot realistically be dissented against; there i no example of a scenario where this dissent does not ultimately turn violent

I think boraxman has not suggested to priorize or discriminate on a racial basis. The above is fine and all but I don't see how it is related.

If the discourse was "We have so many gypsies in Spain and we must get rid of them" then I would buy the argument, but it clearly is not.

IN particular, Boraxman's discourse is "Evil powers fom the government are importing foreigner workers because it fits their agenda better than employing people who is already in Australia, and that is bonkers."

The fact you are arguing that "white" countries have to actively import foreigners from non-white backgrounds and then offer training to them for free is equally racist, according to your logic, because you are de-priorizing white natives.


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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 10:50 am

The fact you are arguing that "white" countries have to actively import foreigners from non-white backgrounds and then offer training to them for free is equally racist, according to your logic, because you are de-priorizing white natives.

That's hilarious, considering I'm not advocating any such policy. I am simply articulating that the problem is not a racial or cultural one; it is purely a demographic one, and its principal cause is the low birth rate among native (i.e., non-immigrant) populations in Western countries. There are many causes behind the declining birth-rate in these countries - chief among them, the higher standards of living, the urbanization of the population, and a heavily industrialized economic system - but nowhere can it be stated that foreigners themselves are the cause of native populations not procreating to sufficient numbers to even just replace themselves (at a rate of at least 2,100 births for every 1,000 women).

It is politically unpalatable in these countries for governments to actually undertake the type of population control that is otherwise possible in non-Western countries (such as China, a country that Boraxman has cited repeatedly). Natives in Western Countries -- especially women -- are defiant and resistant to the genomic prerogative to procreate and extend legacies, because of the adverse impact that more children cause to native population economic well-being. This is largely an economic factor, because in an agrarian society, more children necessarily also meant more revenues for the pastoral household. In an urbanized economy, more children invariably mean more expenses.

There are largely cultural efforts under way in the United States to contend with the declining non-immigrant birth-rate (mostly through the use of religiously-charged reversal of abortion rights), though these efforts will largely backfire because native populations generally have access to birth control measures that will keep their birth rates well below the 2,100 births per 1,000 women minimum to maintain populations. It is the primarily non-native and native lower-economic segments of society that will suffer under these policies, creating more people in those segments. Ironically, banning abortion or restricting birth control will drive up the rate at which non-natives will procreate, further diminishing the native population count and further making it inevitable for the non-native population to out-populate the natives.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon May 30 2022 10:42 am

The fact you are arguing that "white" countries have to actively import foreigners from non-white backgrounds and then offer training to them for free is equally racist, according to your logic, because you are de-priorizing white natives.

That's hilarious, considering I'm not advocating any such policy. I am simp

You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.

If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.

Just in case it is not clear, my general position on this issue is that I am not against immigration per-se but I am against incentivicing it.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 03:15 pm

You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.

If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.

My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable given the demographic failure of most Western states. If a Western state wishes to avoid the subsequent political failure that often follows demographic failure (including, a collapse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and potentially even military confrontation from larger and more competitive/populous nations), it must confront its demographic failure. Immigration, as it stands, is seen by most democratic governments as the most palatable approach to managing this problem. It is, by no means, the only approach - and, if you live in an authoritarian society, many more options appear on your menu from which governments can select.

If you must import people for demographic purposes - replenishing your decreasing population, maintaining competitiveness in the open marketplace, or even just sustaining the native population through the service economic sector - then, governments should be integrating and assimilating these populations. Otherwise, they will create significant social and political strife, which eventually defeats whatever perceived economic benefits one may derive from them. In the world today, the United States has the highest success rate at integrating and assimilating these populations, but it certainly does not stand alone.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am

I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.

in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is arrested and they are white: you get a photo. you get them mentioned as being white several times.

if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.

i come from a diverse background and half my family is black and my family are immigrants. so fuck people telling me how to talk.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon May 30 2022 01:47 pm

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 03:15 pm

You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.

If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.

My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable gi the demographic failure of most Western states. If a Western state wishes t avoid the subsequent political failure that often follows demographic failur (including, a collapse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and potentially even military confrontation from larger and mor competitive/populous nations), it must confront its demographic failure. Immigration, as it stands, is seen by most democratic governments as the mos palatable approach to managing this problem. It is, by no means, the only approach - and, if you live in an authoritarian society, many more options appear on your menu from which governments can select.

If you must import people for demographic purposes - replenishing your decreasing population, maintaining competitiveness in the open marketplace, even just sustaining the native population through the service economic sect - then, governments should be integrating and assimilating these populations Otherwise, they will create significant social and political strife, which eventually defeats whatever perceived economic benefits one may derive from them. In the world today, the United States has the highest success rate at integrating and assimilating these populations, but it certainly does not st alone.
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I think you give governments too much credit if you think they have long term plans to face demographic crisis. My experience is politicians only attempt to solve issues that will apply over their mandate. IMO they are using the demographic crisis as the good sounding excuse for rolling out incentive programs to further their actual political goals (such as shipping foreigners to certain areas or manipulating public opinion).

Also the US is starting to look like a bad example to use since it was literally burning due to unsolved ethnocultural conflicts in what seems three days ago.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 05:37 pm

I think you give governments too much credit if you think they have long term plans to face demographic crisis. My experience is politicians only attempt to solve issues that will apply over their mandate. IMO they are using the demographic crisis as the good sounding excuse for rolling out incentive programs to further their actual political goals (such as shipping foreigners to certain areas or manipulating public opinion).

I think democratic governments are absolutely short-sighted, but do not underestimate how countries are limited by the options presented to them based upon geopolitical realities. Yes, politicians in democracies are mostly interested in re-election, but most democratic states are, practically speaking, coalitions of oligarchies (especially plutocratic ones) which are interested in one thing above all else: continued growth. Geopolitics will drive decision-making and thinking around policies, though politics will often times resemble something very different (especially on cultural issues).

Also the US is starting to look like a bad example to use since it was literally burning due to unsolved ethnocultural conflicts in what seems three days ago.

I think we are in a global period of re-examining democracy as a valid form of government, and if you believe President Xi of China, authoritarian regimes threaten the deliberative, consensus-generating world order with a potentially faster, more agile form of governance. Nevertheless, societal ills can generally only be addressed through deliberation and compromise - factors that authoritarian regimes cannot contend with.

The United States, despite the January 6th Insurrection (wholly manufactured by President Trump and his supporters), and the many social challenges stemming from cultural, racial, and economic tensions (which have endured since our Founding, with episodes from the Civil War to Martin Luther King to Rodney King and now the Black Lives Matter movements), is still a suitable example for several reasons:

1. Despite our divisions and countless contradictions, the United States leverages its economic and political structures to ruthless and devastating effect in order to dominate the competitive landscape for science, technology, defense, and even healthcare.

2. While there is vast inequality in earning power, and the gap between the rich and the poor is reaching another apex similar to the Gilded Age of the 1880s-1920s, the United States is effective at delivering the largest national economy, which it achieves through a patrimonial federal subsidy of all of its critical industries.

3. While there are significant demographic challenges in the United States (with our native birth rates anywhere between 1,700 per 1,000 women to 2,080 per 1,000 women), our permissive immigration system allows our legalized (and visible) population to grow substantially, year-over-year, ensuring we continue to expand our population while concurrently leveraging our institutions and economic systems to attract the brightest talent from throughout the world.

Again, the United States is not alone in its ability to democratically manage its demographic challenges through a variety of tools, while still maintaining social stability in ways that outperform other Western Countries. Britain, Canada, and Australia have achieved similar breakthroughs, with similar socioeconomic and ethnocultural challenges with which they must contend. But these challenges - and the social tensions that they cause - are well worth the benefits that increasing your population and maintaining a competitive edge in the global world order.

I think that as the democracy vs. autocracy ideological debate rages on throughout the world (which is primarily a United States vs. China conflict, with Russia being a useful pawn in this exercise given the Ukraine War), you will see increasing instability in authoritarian governments that lack the means to contend with the social and economic strife that the unilateral "agility" of hierarchical decision-making affords/costs them. You are already seeing the general breakdown of public order, of economic stability, and of general institutional solvency in China due to the "Zero Covid" mandate, for example, which is largely representative of many of Xi's domestic failures stemming from - again - inability to successfully mediate the social, economic, and cultural tensions that run deep within modern Chinese society. Much as the United States has twelve distinct native culture (See: "The American Nations," for a good primer on our immigration / settlre genesis), China has at least five distinct native populations that - unlike in the United States' case - are deeply and violently opposed to one another.

It will lead to a violent and brutal reckoning for China, eventually. I hope that by the time it does, China has a democratic framework with which to mediate the social and ethnocultural divisions. Otherwise, a Civil War is inevitable.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon May 30 2022 01:47 pm

My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable gi the demographic failure of most Western states. If a Western state wishes t avoid the subsequent political failure that often follows demographic failur (including, a collapse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and potentially even military confrontation from larger and mor competitive/populous nations), it must confront its demographic failure. Immigration, as it stands, is seen by most democratic governments as the mos palatable approach to managing this problem. It is, by no means, the only approach - and, if you live in an authoritarian society, many more options appear on your menu from which governments can select.

Besides, as mentioned earlier, if you import people with a culture different enough from yours as a solution, your own culture will be extinguished nevertheless unless you assimilate the incomers. Notice I didn't say "integrate". I said "assimilate". This is the core reason why your average nationalist does not buy immigration as a solution.

Some people underestimates greatly how expansive certain cultures are and how defensive their members are regarding those cultures. This is probably because Westerns seem to think the usual Western traditions (based on religion, pagan customes from ages past and whatever have you) are lame and that people from other cultures have the same appreciation for their own culture as Westerns do for theirs. This is kind of dangerous because a single person pushing a cultural agenda is cute but four thousand are a political entity. The Opus Dei is harmless because there are so few of them: if they were 40% of the population chances are you'd live under a Christian Theocracy.

I faced the most utter ridicule recently when I watched an Interview at some representative of a neiughbourhood asociation in Barcelona, regarding Mena gang activity. Barcelona has one of the most progressive autonomic governments in Spain right now. This guy said that the neighbourhood was all inclusive, welcoming and anti-racist, that they loved Moroccans... but that they needed to get the fuck out because the situation was unsustainable and they needed to be placed somewhere where they could be helped.

And this is the problem: a typical Nationalist sees this and thinks that, if one of the autonomic governments who tries the hardest to integrate outsiders is facing this issue, then mass integration tactics are a failure at best and
a scam at worst.

Actually, I think those types have a point, when it comes to certain types of culture. Proponents of mass immigration actually claim they can import massive ammounts of people from countries in which, if you walk around with your 16 years old daughter, you will receive purchase offer for her, and that they can integrate such worldwiew in the core of the Western world in a conflict-free way. My grandparents spent a big chunk of their lives in Africa and they were skepticks towards this idea.

Random thought: why are the pro-feminist parties the ones who are fine
giving incentives to religions and cultures which historically treat women like garbage?



--
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 06:13 pm

Besides, as mentioned earlier, if you import people with a culture different enough from yours as a solution, your own culture will be extinguished nevertheless unless you assimilate the incomers. Notice I didn't say "integrate". I said "assimilate". This is the core reason why your average nationalist does not buy immigration as a solution.

Completely agree. For me, and many who genuinely understand and appreciate the concept of the true "melting pot" (and, aside from the United States and a select handful of other countries, I haven't seen this done particularly well), assimilation is key. This means the extinguishing of the discernable cultural traits that are alienating and exclusionary, and the selective alignment of beneficial traits of that culture into the overarching emergent super-culture into which they are folded. So, to continue in the prior examples I've given, in the United States, Irish-Americans are not Irish - they are Americans from an Irish descendancy. Cuban-Americans are not Cuban - they are Americans from a Cuban origination. There is pride in the traditions and upbringing, but an eagerness to discard those that made Irish and Cubans "separate", and instead a primary on the American-ness given their assimilation. And we're talking two very differet periods of assimilation (the 1920s vs. the 1960s).

Some people underestimates greatly how expansive certain cultures are and how defensive their members are regarding those cultures. This is probably because Westerns seem to think the usual Western traditions (based on religion, pagan customes from ages past and whatever have you) are lame and that people from other cultures have the same appreciation for their own culture as Westerns do for theirs. This is kind of dangerous because a single person pushing a cultural agenda is cute but four thousand are a political entity. The Opus Dei is harmless because there are so few of them: if they were 40% of the population chances are you'd live under a Christian Theocracy.

Once again, we agree. The difficulty with some Western countries' naivete with the dificulty in assimilation is that they are eager to subordinate the parent culture into the new culture being assimilated. That's not how this works, and yet, there is a deep civic deficit in those countries with their origins, their national character, and the history of their civilization so as to provoke pride and appreciation in what makes that culture unique and distinct.

To channel Star Trek's Borg - assimilated cultures must add their ethnic and biological distinctiveness to the assimilating super-culture. If done properly, that uniqueness becomes forever a part of the parent culture into which they are being assimilated, and the traits that would otherwise call for separation are completely jettisoned. The distinctive traits that make the assimilated culture unique are added to the distinctivness and uniqueness of the new parent culture. So, when Cubans assimilated into American society through Cuban-American melting-pot behavior, our humor, our cuisine, our history, and our Hispano-Iberian Caucasian roots became a new part of the emerging American super-culture. Cubans are as American as any other group, but far more so than any culture that hasn't properly assimilated or has resisted assimilation.

In France, segregation and isolation of cultures inherently is abherrant to assimilation and resists this melting pot with instead a preference for fictitious integration.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to Boraxman on Mon May 30 2022 05:16 pm

in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is arrested and they are white: you get a photo. you get them mentioned as being white several times.

if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.

Less than 100 miles north of you, it's the opposite.

DaiTengu

... Dead people are cool

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: DaiTengu to MRO on Tue May 31 2022 12:25 am

if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.

Less than 100 miles north of you, it's the opposite.

DaiTengu

In milwaukee there is a huge problem with black on black crime.

I saw a video of the police chief dancing around with people at some
take back the hood event. Meanwhile black people are killed every day and it gets ignored. it's really sad.

here's some info on our areas:

Appleton Demographics
White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%

Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%

Whats strange is when i'm out I see mostly black people no matter where I go.
i guess it's because of segregation. The whites are just in certain areas of the county

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am

here's some info on our areas:

Appleton Demographics
White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%

Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%

Appleton was a "Sundown town" up until the late 60s. While it's gotten a lot better, there's still a lot of racism here.

Rumor has it, there used to be a billboard just north of Fond Du Lac that said black people were not welcome north of there. I'm guessing that would have been in the 1940s or so.

DaiTengu

... There's little worse than being peerless in a peer-review system.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am

Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%

lolno.

The metro area is like 65% white and 15% black.


- Andre

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: DaiTengu to MRO on Tue May 31 2022 07:32 am

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am

here's some info on our areas:

Appleton Demographics
White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%

Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%

Appleton was a "Sundown town" up until the late 60s. While it's gotten a lot better, there's still a lot of racism here.

Rumor has it, there used to be a billboard just north of Fond Du Lac that said black people were not welcome north of there. I'm guessing that would have been in the 1940s or so.

wow that's crazy.

it certainly still has a reputation for being lilly white.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am

Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-

@MSGID: <6293C53B.27982.dove_dove-deb@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" bei European, but not Anglo.

At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.

Nightfox

I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples li on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.

It is done because it looks favorable on paper to the community and the government.

Several years ago a local radio station was mentioned on the news because it fell within the lower percentile of radio stations in it's progamming format with regards to hiring minorities and overall diversity of employees.

In defense of theirselves, the radio station manager pointet out they had
been under a hiring freeze for that year, so any new employee would be a
direct replacement of another, and no one left the company that year. They also pulled the job application forms for the last five years, and no one considered as a minority had applied. It was at the time a stand alone statio n with one tower and a small building next to it. My guess is 10-15
employees. Album oriented rock, and other than DJ's babysitting an automated system, they had two guys in the morning telling jokes and reading traffic reports and sometimes an afternoon guy that will air calls. The morning guys and afternoon guys were replaced by syndicated radio shows. All the rest
were engineers, admin, or sales folk. They had historically hired all their talen from the local college, so that also narrowed down their choices as to who applied to their communications programs.

They got off the list bottom eventually. They were bought up by a larger broadcast company that kept the transmitter but closed down the office.
They moved everyone into a larger building with all their other affiliates
and laid off whoever they no longer needed. The station format is talk
radio, and nearly every show is syndicated.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm

Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very "recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.

This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries, as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints, other than to be the pawns of greater powers.

The Third Reich would never have triumphed long term because it was based on Great Man (figuratively speaking) and had an unsustainable ideology.

The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would fi yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking again the regime, than if you were married to a black person.

The narrative that the war/fight was about racism is a post-hoc rationalise the West to justify demographic changes by leadership. No one back then was stupid enough to conflate the Nazi's specific racial ideas with restricted immigration. That confusion, which you are spreading, came later.

At what point do the British or French get to say that immigration should be curtailed? When they are less then 50%, 40%, 30%?

The "big lie" the Reich was built upon was based on blaming the nation's problems on minority groups with obvious or strong presence. Conspiracy that external ethnic and religious groups were there to contaminate their culture and destroy the nation from the inside.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon May 30 2022 01:47 pm

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 03:15 pm

You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.

If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.

My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable gi apse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and pote cratic governments as the most palatable approach to managing this problem.

If you must import people for demographic purposes - replenishing your decre d be integrating and assimilating these populations. Otherwise, they will c the highest success rate at integrating and assimilating these populations, _____
-=: Kaelon :=-

This is a generalization, but the upper class families tend to have less kids than the poor families that rely on goverment assistance. Bringing in immigrants from countries that are known to have larger families is a limited strategy. Once they become assimilated into the mainstream culture, the
better off newly naturalized citizens will follow the norm and have less children. Bringing in people in order to bring in more people makes little sense unless they invest and contribute to the system rather than feed off of it.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to Boraxman on Mon May 30 2022 05:16 pm

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am

I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked tha despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hir based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of liter racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particu race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quit literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.

in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is arrested an

if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description.

i come from a diverse background and half my family is black and my family

This was more noticable during the Obama years. After the Sandy Hook mass shooting, any possible incident was sure to make the news, except for the shooting in New Orleans where 19 participants of a Mother's Day parade were shot and wounded. The two shooters were young black males, and shot at the parade as part of a gang initiation. The rival gang had members marching in the parade with their mothers. Black on black crimes hardly ever made the hea dlines, or if race wasn't mentioned, it implied it was left out on purpose.


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Just in case it is not clear, my general position on this issue is that I am not against immigration per-se but I am against incentivicing it.

+ 1


* SLMR 2.1a * My wife made me join a bridge club...I jump next week.

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■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. a
no mention of race.

That is interesting. Here, they still at least include a photo, if it is a
TV story.


* SLMR 2.1a * True Multitasking = 3 PCs and a chair with wheels!

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The United States, despite the January 6th Insurrection (wholly manufactured b
President Trump and his supporters), and the many social challenges stemming f
m cultural, racial, and economic tensions (which have endured since our Foundi
, with episodes from the Civil War to Martin Luther King to Rodney King and no
the Black Lives Matter movements), is still a suitable example for several rea
ns:

You seem to be ignoring the 2020 Summer of Riots, which I think is what the poster was refering to when he mentioned the US being on fire.


* SLMR 2.1a * I'm dangerous when I know what I'm doing.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Tue May 31 2022 04:54 pm

if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. a
no mention of race.

That is interesting. Here, they still at least include a photo, if it is a TV story.

that's how it used to be. but they dont do it anymore in my area in the liberal newspapers.
i have to use another source to find photo and description.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: DaiTengu to MRO on Tue May 31 2022 07:32 am

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am

here's some info on our areas:

Appleton Demographics
White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%

Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian 4.26%

Appleton was a "Sundown town" up until the late 60s. While it's gotten a lo

Rumor has it, there used to be a billboard just north of Fond Du Lac that sa

DaiTengu

... There's little worse than being peerless in a peer-review system.

Goshen, Indiana was a sundown town. Anderson, Indiana was also a sundown
town.

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Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:45 pm

You keep trying to deny there is policy, when clearly, immigration policy, as well as the ideological push towards "diversity" and the "melting pot" is cleary a deliberate goal.

I disagree that this is the goal. You ascribe racialist intent to a demographic policy, because you see the world in racial terms. I see
the world in geopolitical terms, and as I describe elsewhere and here,
the policies we have for immigration are numerical in origin: they are economic and they are demographic. If there were enough White
immigrants, for example, willing to accept the economic and demographic circumstances of immigrating to France or Britain, I assure you, they would be taken.

"Diversity," as a sociopolitical argument, is a way of managing the outcomes of the goal. It's really simple: this is all about numbers.
The largest (i.e., most populous and geographically expansive /
resource rich) nation-states are the most prosperous and powerful on
the planet. Conversely, nation-states with shrinking populations or
with ecologically or geographically challenged circumstances, are
looking at a certain geopolitical destiny as a second-rate (if not subjugated) power.

That's the goal here.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

How do you account for those who clearly state that changing demographics will change the character of the nation? How do you account for accusations that someting is "too white"? How do you accont for protests against any other view being "racist".

If one particular view is an "ism", then surely another particular view is as well. You view things through a Geopolitical lens, which is reasonable enough, but at some point we have to step back and say "what for".

I DO take a nationalistic point of view because it is in my self interest to do so, just as it is in self interest of a ruling elite, or a ruling aristocracy, to do what it takes to maintain THEIR power.

The largest states may win, but WHAT wins? There is the issue, the nihilism inherit within the modern so called nation state. The state itself is its own power, its own entity, and represents its own interest, which is decoupled from the people who had created it. The US was founded with the idea that would be for OUR prosperity. Not for the sake of the state itself, but for the benefit of the people who founded it. If not for that, then what?

What value is the UK, or France, or Australia, or the US for that matter, when the only metric, the only judgement of success is the state appartus and the administrative entity? The nation-state become like a corporation, and we become like employees, who only have an interest if we are employed.

This is the pathology here. The nation-state has decoupled from the people who created and built it, and is itself its own meaning. Britains success is no longer the success of the British people, but just the organisations that claim to be "Britain". The state no longer represents a people.

So why should I care if my own country is the biggest, when it has no loyalty to me?

It is irrelevant to me if Australia is successful, if the proposition of Australia no longer represent, or is, what I am. Just as the US become less and less relevant, when it represents, less and less, what Americans are. IT becomes a hollow proposition state, and such states cannot be free, they must become authoritarian. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether a nation state lives or not. They are artificial constructs anyway. Culture, people, ethnic groups, that which will still persist, THEY are real.

In the West (unlike say, China), we've removed this factor from our analysis, from our worldview. We're purely geo-political, but have defined ourselves out of existence. This is why Chinese *WILL* overtake Americans as a force. There will still be a Chinese nation, but only a hollowed out American empire.

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Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm

This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

I think the process is largely unstoppable, not without a real
replacement to the solution to the problem - which I have argued repeatedly is demographic in origin. If Britain were to surpass 2,100 births for every 1,000 women, it would no longer be in demographic
crisis within one generation. China and Korea can impose immigration restrictions because it has a demographic crisis in the other direction
-- too many people, not enough resources to maintain them.

Perpetual population growth is simply not sustainable. We MUST face a new reality, that populations are not going to always increase.

It is expected at some point in this or next century, that this will become the norm. We simply cannot be reliant on alway having above replacement population growth.

The size of the population will wax and wane, but the problem is not the birthrate. It is our inability to adapt to a world with education, birth control, automation and machinery.

The process is not unstoppable. Government policy created it, and government policy can be changed.

But I do issue a warning, I do not believe that things will play out the way people think. The more balkanised the population, the MORE identity politics will come into play.

White people are simply the last to realise that Identity Politics IS the politics of the 21'st century. Idiot conservatives are the ones who are blind to this, as they are still stuck in the 1950's.

This is a new tangent, and I am happy to debate it, but there is vast evidence that shows that the policy of the Third Reich - beyond what it publicly espoused in documentation - was racialist in origin. Every decision made during the Second World War, from electing not to
complete Operation Sea Lion against the British, turn its attention to Russia and the expansive East, or to divert critical manufacturing resources to hasten the shipping of Jews to the concentration camps in
the final year of the war, were all premised upon the real aim - what Himmler would later state "even if we lose, future generations will
laud us for our achievement" - which was to depopulate the continent of non-Aryans. _____
-=: Kaelon :=-

They were racialist, but they were Nazi's before they were racialist. The very fact they were able to kill other Europeans by the hundreds of thousands for their own regime's view of history I think demonstrates where their priorities lie. They killed Eastern Europeans by the millions, who clearly are genetically closer to them than the Japanese they allied with.

Not to mention the Germans they killed, or were willing to sacrifice. The more the war dragged on, the more it seemed that Hitler was willing to sacrifice so much blood for what he believed to be the real cause, manifest destiny. The Germans were supposed to rule, and if they couldn't, they weren't worthy of it and didn't deserve to survive. The people, he saw, were just fodder for an IDEA. Absolute statism! Fascism!

Fascism and this type of statism are completely incompatible with a state which exists for a peoples prosperity. At least when done by Westerners. China for some reason has managed to maintain a Fascist state which hasn't become demographically dysgenic, but I think this is due to a different mindset. Perhaps because they aren't interested in Empire.

The theories of the Third Reich weren't their inventions, but ideas which had been floating around beforehand, some of them quite preposterous (belief in hollow earth, hyperboreans). They misunderstood (or abused) Darwins beliefs and took a more occult/mystical analysis than any scientific or demographic analysis.

My view is that it was a dysgenic mind-virus. It became pathological because it believed that there was an arc of history, a destiny, a particular telos, or end goal. Such ideologies ALWAYS end up pathological and destructive. Communism, Nazism, any ideology which supposes a "right side" and "wrong side" of history, which believes that there is this one outcome which must come about will turn bad, and will twist ideas to justify itself, and the power of those who rule by it.

None of this is related to how wide you hold the gates into your own country. These are seperate things. You will NOT find in your research, accusations against Germany for not wanting to become a multiracial state, or not being diverse. The idea that not embracing the Ben & Jerry's vision of the future makes one therefore a Nazi is a poor application of the slippery slope fallacy, the same as arguing that any liberalisation of sexual mores will lead a retern of pederasty.

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MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am

I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.

in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is
arrested and they are white: you get a photo. you get them mentioned
as being white several times.

if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.

i come from a diverse background and half my family is black and my family are immigrants. so fuck people telling me how to talk. ---

Yeah, when the descriptions are conspiciously vague, you know. Or the tried and tested "youths"... I like that one, "youths" that are 28 years old.

It's the same problem here in Australia. The truth has be be reported in a way so that people don't actually figure out what the truth is.

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Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am

Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-

@MSGID: <6293C53B.27982.dove_dove-deb@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" bei European, but not Anglo.

At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.

Nightfox

I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples li on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.

It is done because it looks favorable on paper to the community and the government.

Several years ago a local radio station was mentioned on the news
because it fell within the lower percentile of radio stations in it's progamming format with regards to hiring minorities and overall
diversity of employees.

In defense of theirselves, the radio station manager pointet out they
had been under a hiring freeze for that year, so any new employee would
be a direct replacement of another, and no one left the company that
year. They also pulled the job application forms for the last five
years, and no one considered as a minority had applied. It was at the time a stand alone statio n with one tower and a small building next to it. My guess is 10-15 employees. Album oriented rock, and other than DJ's babysitting an automated system, they had two guys in the morning telling jokes and reading traffic reports and sometimes an afternoon
guy that will air calls. The morning guys and afternoon guys were replaced by syndicated radio shows. All the rest were engineers,
admin, or sales folk. They had historically hired all their talen
from the local college, so that also narrowed down their choices as to
who applied to their communications programs.

They got off the list bottom eventually. They were bought up by a
larger broadcast company that kept the transmitter but closed down the office. They moved everyone into a larger building with all their other affiliates and laid off whoever they no longer needed. The station
format is talk radio, and nearly every show is syndicated.

Here is the thing. This looks good for what reason? For IDEOLOGICAL reasons!

What do such intitiatives serve? They serve ideologies. If our country were run for our interests, you wouldn't see such ideas. So we live in a state where ideological interests trump our own interests.


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Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm

Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very "recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.

This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries, as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints, other than to be the pawns of greater powers.

The Third Reich would never have triumphed long term because it was based on Great Man (figuratively speaking) and had an unsustainable ideology.

The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would fi yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking again the regime, than if you were married to a black person.

The narrative that the war/fight was about racism is a post-hoc rationalise the West to justify demographic changes by leadership. No one back then was stupid enough to conflate the Nazi's specific racial ideas with restricted immigration. That confusion, which you are spreading, came later.

At what point do the British or French get to say that immigration should be curtailed? When they are less then 50%, 40%, 30%?

The "big lie" the Reich was built upon was based on blaming the
nation's problems on minority groups with obvious or strong presence. Conspiracy that external ethnic and religious groups were there to contaminate their culture and destroy the nation from the inside.

Jews specifically, then Slavs. They didn't blame everyone who wasn't German.

Scapegoats are commonly used, but the fact that they used a "race" as a scapegoat is of secondary importance. They could have used "Communists" (they did), or "liberals", or even "white nationalists" or "racists" or "conservatives" as their scapegoat. The only thing that matters is it serves their end goals.

Communists had their scapegoats. They blamed "wreckers" and "counter revolutionaries" and killed millions for their failings. Stalin killed more than Hitler after all. Mao as well.

Our mistake is thinking that any expression of self interest will lead to scapegoating, which is a misunderstanding of power politics. The danger isn't self-interest, the danger is bad ideology.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Dumas Walker to KAELON on Tue May 31 2022 04:56 pm

You seem to be ignoring the 2020 Summer of Riots, which I think is what the poster was refering to when he mentioned the US being on fire.

I am definitely not ignoring the Black Lives Matter movement, of which the 2020 "Summer of Riots" was an episode. It's just that BLM is part of an American tradition of dealing with its origins as a Slave Nation. We've been having race riots since before the Civil War, and they happen very predictably every 5-7 years.

Despite the media hysteria around it, race relations between non-Blacks and Blacks in the United States aren't deteriorating. They're just not getting much better, and it is part of our national reckoning. It is challenging to assimilate a population that was kidnapped here from a distant land and enslaved for domestic and agrarian servitude. But it will eventually be done, and when done properly, it will forever change the character of the United States.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed Jun 01 2022 08:24 pm

How do you account for those who clearly state that changing demographics will change the character of the nation? How do you account for accusations that someting is "too white"? How do you accont for protests against any other view being "racist".

I don't really perpetuate the social aprobrium over the term "racialist," because while I certainly understand that it leads down a path of exclusionary violence (and it is, in my opinion, inescapable for racialists to themselves turn to force in order to enact their agenda), I don't necessarily think this in and of itself is a bad thing. It is, however, racialist - and it's important to call it out for what it is. Your core argument is that the national character of a country is aligned to the ethnic composition of its current dominant race (namely, "Whites," as you have identified them). That is a racialist perspective, as opposed to the overwhelmingly dominant perspective of most Western nation-states, which is not racialist, but corporatist (and you alude to this point later, which I also agree with).

If one particular view is an "ism", then surely another particular view is as well. You view things through a Geopolitical lens, which is reasonable enough, but at some point we have to step back and say "what for".

I DO take a nationalistic point of view because it is in my self interest to do so, just as it is in self interest of a ruling elite, or a ruling aristocracy, to do what it takes to maintain THEIR power.

So in your view, your personal self interest is aligned with the self interest of your race? And that other races are inherently a threat to your self interest, because they will "change the character" of your country?

The largest states may win, but WHAT wins? There is the issue, the nihilism inherit within the modern so called nation state. The state itself is its own power, its own entity, and represents its own interest, which is decoupled from the people who had created it. The US was founded with the idea that would be for OUR prosperity. Not for the sake of the state itself, but for the benefit of the people who founded it. If not for that, then what?

In all fairness - and this is not a popular view, but it is the truth - the United States was founded as a merchant republic for trading companies (literally, the ancestors of today's 'corporations') to be able to operate geopolitically without impunity by the British Crown. Yes, the British Crown's general incompetence and financial mismanagement of the Colonies made the argument for independence easier, but the United States was a different "culture" (or, really, 12 different cultures - see, again, "American Nations") all based upon the 12 different settler companies that colonized the Americas. It was never designed to be a racialist state - to the contrary, its origins were to welcome peoples of all origins, so long as they were prepared to contribute with their labor and talents to the various companies and, later, corporations that made up the American states.

This is in start contrast to the other Nation-States of Europe, which were entities created around a single specific culture. That is not the case for the United States, for Australia (to an extent), and today, for the European Union, all of whom exist primarily for corporate financial interests.

What value is the UK, or France, or Australia, or the US for that matter, when the only metric, the only judgement of success is the state appartus and the administrative entity? The nation-state become like a corporation, and we become like employees, who only have an interest if we are employed.

I don't think the State has much value in the Anglo-Saxon tradition today; it is simply an administrative means for the corporate end. Corporations in the United States, United Kingdom, and Australia (to a lesser extent), are the dominant political players that drive the policies of their governments. And this is precisely how these governments were built: to represent the elite through the machinery of elections that favored incumbency, prioritized established hierarchies, and necessarily favored wealthy people over the poor.

This is the pathology here. The nation-state has decoupled from the people who created and built it, and is itself its own meaning. Britains success is no longer the success of the British people, but just the organisations that claim to be "Britain". The state no longer represents a people.

The term "pathology" suggests that something is going poorly here. I disagree; this is precisely the plan. The United States, the United Kingdom, the European Union, and most "western" states are now well into multiple generations of institution-building to create the so called "Australia, Inc." or "Britain, Inc." In essence, creating a global trading power coupled with the military and industrial resources necessary to support the commercial projection of these entities, is the plan.

So why should I care if my own country is the biggest, when it has no loyalty to me?

Your country was never loyal to you. You are clinging to a populist idea that has never, institutionally, really existed. If it did, then the political system would have been totally different. Rather than a representative parliamentary democracy, Australia could have / should have had a meritocratic oligarchy favoring native-born Australians over non-native born outsiders. Constitutionally, Australia is organized for the benefit of revenue. Much like the United Kingdom, the United States, and increasingly, the European Union.

It is irrelevant to me if Australia is successful, if the proposition of Australia no longer represent, or is, what I am. Just as the US become less and less relevant, when it represents, less and less, what Americans are.
IT becomes a hollow proposition state, and such states cannot be free, they must become authoritarian. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether a nation state lives or not. They are artificial constructs anyway. Culture, people, ethnic groups, that which will still persist, THEY are real.

Culture exists, there is no doubt, in the minds of the people who recognize them. There is also the dangerous - and yet vital - conversation about how people from different regions of the world develop biological traits and characteristics, passed through generations, that favor certain geographic dispositions. But these cultural constructs aren't reflected in any modern nation-state, not even China (see below).

In the West (unlike say, China), we've removed this factor from our analysis, from our worldview. We're purely geo-political, but have defined ourselves out of existence. This is why Chinese *WILL* overtake Americans as a force. There will still be a Chinese nation, but only a hollowed out American empire.

I think this is grossly inaccurate. China is really five different and distinct cultures forced together through brutal ideology; all five of these cultures are deeply and violently opposed to one another. Ask a Cantonese merchant what he really thinks of a Beijing administrator, and you will see just one of the many examples. When you compare the Han Chinese, vs. Shianghai, vs. Western Chinese, and all of these various other cultures, you will see that - were it not for the brutal authoritarian Communist Party - these regions of China would have all split apart and become different states, with each their own value systems.

Additionally, China lacks the geopolitical resources to meaningfully displace the United States. Yes, it has population - but its population is in demographic crisis: it is too large, and also (thanks to the failed authoritarian dictate of the "One Child Policy") perilously unbalanced in favor of too many men this generation. In the rural and suburban countryside of China, with just a few percentage points difference between the number of men and women, there are forced marriages, kidnappings, and rapes that run rampant across society because of a generation of men who, numerically, will become involuntarily celibate (not because of choice, but simply because of numbers). There are countless examples of the demographic crisis. But the real problem is less demographics (because policies can address the demographic imbalance), but the geography.

More than 75% of China is impassible, useless terrain. Conversely, the only usable terrain of China is densely overpopulated, seriously over-mined, and increasingly boxed in by Japan, South Korea, India, and the United States. It is partly for that reason that the Communist Party feels so threatened by the "Big Four" and multinational institutions - because it isn't seen as a reliable / transparent and accountable corporate partner, and because it is being checked. But more importantly, it doesn't have very many good options to respond.

Yes, China will continue to grow and may, eventually, overtake the United States from a raw revenue perspective, given its vast population. But as a geopolitical power, China is trapped as a regional great power, at best, and its ambitions as a superpower are limited by its unfortunate position on our planet - a fact it will try to remedy by constructing islands, invading other countries, and potentially eventually sparking a Third World War.

See: https://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/06/the-island-of-china/
_____
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Dumas Walker on Wed Jun 01 2022 08:52 am

I am definitely not ignoring the Black Lives Matter movement, of which the 2 "Summer of Riots" was an episode. It's just that BLM is part of an American tradition of dealing with its origins as a Slave Nation. We've been having race riots since before the Civil War, and they happen very predictably ever 5-7 years.

I guess it is a tradition as respectable as slowly slicing a bull to death in a public arena and calling it bullfighting, or driving dolphins into a gulf and massacring them with sledgehammers to the point the waters get so red you d think the Cannae Battle has happened there four times in five minutes.

Being traditional does not mean something is defensible. That is, if you manage to convince anybody that it is traditional to begin with XD

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed Jun 01 2022 08:52 pm

Perpetual population growth is simply not sustainable. We MUST face a new reality, that populations are not going to always increase.

It is expected at some point in this or next century, that this will become the norm. We simply cannot be reliant on alway having above replacement population growth.

The size of the population will wax and wane, but the problem is not the birthrate. It is our inability to adapt to a world with education, birth control, automation and machinery.

The process is not unstoppable. Government policy created it, and government policy can be changed.

A couple of thoughts on this:

1. The United States and Australia are two perfect examples of countries that have the geographic advantages of vast natural resources, and a miniscule population to harvest those resources, to maximize their geopolitical potential. So, at least for the U.S. and Australia, increasing population - not decreasing it - has to be the geopolitical norm, because this will allow you to tap the full potential of your country.

2. Urbanization, as a consequence of the military industrialization of national economies (largely a post-war phenomenon), resulted in the broad realignment of culture in the United States - away from the agrarian, large-family ethos, towards the urban, smaller-family ethos - and it directly paired with a higher standard of living. In order to move away from this demographic crisis - which results in lower birth rates because of how people live, work, and play - we need to radically change how people live, work, and play. The Pandemic helped initiate (or accelerate, depending upon which sociologist you consult) a broad re-examination of the balance between work and life, one which had not really been examined since the Middle Ages - when tradespeople worked in a place nominally distinct from where they lived, and used time-tracking (thanks to the emergence of the clock) as a way to commoditize their lifespan, rather than live more holistically by daylight vs. nighttime hours. To achieve what you propose, we need to reinvent society to the pre-Middle Ages state, and perhaps examine a Roman era where people lived lives more fully and integrated. However, I think the boat has largely sailed on this question, given that the modern nation-state is, in effect, a corporation that maximizes the value of its government through the extraction of revenues from its population, resources, and the trade that it can produce.

A reimagining of society in this way can either be gradual and profound -- the way the United States seems to be embarking on this, with great pains, whereby cultural conservatives are re-examining previously settled constructs, like birth control and the autonomy of a woman's body and role in society -- or sudden and extremely violent. It is my general view that we won't see a solution in our lifetimes, because just as the post-Renaissaince world order in Europe could only be reimagined through the colonization of the New World and the demographic and geopolitical challenges that this posed, I do believe that our current planetary "world order" of corporatist revenue maximization (constant growth, constant expansion) will only be checked by a reimagined way of living and producing value. The Colonization of Mars, or another planet, or possibly the seas below, may spur such a moment.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Wed Jun 01 2022 01:27 pm

I guess it is a tradition as respectable as slowly slicing a bull to death in a public arena and calling it bullfighting, or driving dolphins into a gulf and massacring them with sledgehammers to the point the waters get so red you d think the Cannae Battle has happened there four times in five minutes.

Being traditional does not mean something is defensible. That is, if you manage to convince anybody that it is traditional to begin with XD

Because there is no national consensus on the integration of the formerly enslaved African American population into mainstream American Society -- and the lack of this consensus demonstrates itself given the constant alternation between extremely progressive engagement of African Americans in all spheres of political, econonic, and social life; vs. the continuation of the brutally enslaving prison-industrial system, that extracts labor from imprisoned African Americans, who are often coerced or conditioned into lives of crime by the circumstances deemed societally preferable -- I think we're likely to see a continuation of this re-examination for generations to come.

Again, this is not a popular perspective, but to somehow suggest that things are getting worse, is to turn a blind eye to the entire history of the American Republic as deeply racist, enslaving, imperial, and corporatist, as a basic fundamental question of our existence.
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if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. a
no mention of race.

That is interesting. Here, they still at least include a photo, if it is a
TV story.

that's how it used to be. but they dont do it anymore in my area in the libe
l newspapers.
i have to use another source to find photo and description.

One thing I have noticed with the mass shootings lately is that they fall
out of the news a lot faster if the shooter is not a white male. The Texas
one may turn out to be an exception because the shooter was practically a
kid, and nearly all the victims were kids.

But I noticed the recent Buffalo shooting, where the shooter is white, has stayed in the news while two other recent shootings (where the shooter was not white) quickly fell out. I had actually forgotten about one of them until
I heard a preacher mention it alongside Texas and Buffalo.

It is difficult for the press, and especially certain politicians, to push
a "white supremacy" problem when the persons doing the shooting are
starting to turn not white.


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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Dumas Walker on Wed Jun 01 2022 08:52 am

Despite the media hysteria around it, race relations between non-Blacks and Blacks in the United States aren't deteriorating. They're just not getting much better, and it is part of our national reckoning.

Things appear worse, but we have social networks amplifying incident response nowadays. Admittedly, I haven't looked at the stats to see if the number of incidents is increasing or not and there's a good possibility that I'm way off base.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jun 01 2022 04:56 pm

But I noticed the recent Buffalo shooting, where the shooter is white, has stayed in the news while two other recent shootings (where the shooter was not white) quickly fell out. I had actually forgotten about one of them until
I heard a preacher mention it alongside Texas and Buffalo.

yeah, that one where it was a graduation party and the woman stopped the shooter with her handgun was almost invisible.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Wed Jun 01 2022 04:56 pm

Things appear worse, but we have social networks amplifying incident response nowadays. Admittedly, I haven't looked at the stats to see if the number of incidents is increasing or not and there's a good possibility that I'm way off base.

I would agree with you. Even before social media, cable news and the 24-hour non-stop news cycle generated, in essence, sensationalism, entertainment-as-information (or "infotainment"), and amplification of stories that were really fairly typical. They needed to fill air time, after all. Former NJ Senator Bill Bradley (D) wrote a great book about this in 1999, forecasting that the emergence of infotainment and the coming storm of the Internet would forever eradicate moderation, the search for truth, and lead to a much more polarized, artificially camp-driven mindset across America.

Joe Trippi, Howard Dean's Campaign Manager, also wrote in 2003 in his book, "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised," that the Internet had taken the average attention span of audiences from about 30 minutes closer to 2 min 30 sec. He also concluded that the news cycle had been shortened from 72 hours (from event to completion of reporting and readiness to move on to the next stop) to about 3-6 hours, thanks in large part to blogs and websites (and later, though not in his book, Twitter would be seen as a major aggrivating and complicating factor).

Today, emphasis on news being timely ("now" or "live"), relevant (properly taxonomized and trending), and actionable (sharable, and to use Malcolm Gladwell's critique of digital democracy, "weak ties" activitism-enabled) has led to non-news being reported as newsworthy, and given birth to fake news and machines of propaganda that cannot even keep up with generating enough falsehoods to meet the reader demand. It's a sad and troubling state of affairs for democracy.
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Things appear worse, but we have social networks amplifying incident response wadays. Admittedly, I haven't looked at the stats to see if the number of inci
nts is increasing or not and there's a good possibility that I'm way off base.

I don't think you are too far off base.


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But I noticed the recent Buffalo shooting, where the shooter is white, has stayed in the news while two other recent shootings (where the shooter was not white) quickly fell out. I had actually forgotten about one of them until
I heard a preacher mention it alongside Texas and Buffalo.

yeah, that one where it was a graduation party and the woman stopped the shoot
with her handgun was almost invisible.

There was one at a church, too, where they subdued the gunman.


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On 5/28/22 10:16 AM, Kaelon wrote:

1. Improve demographic and economic conditions for its native
population, to get to at least 2,100 births per 1,000 people.
Most of the West is well below basic replacement figures, and
is reliant upon immigration to meet basic population economic
needs.

Why does any given nation need to even maintain its' population?

Especially if you consider automation, quality of life and other impacts
of an ever increasing population.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Tracker1 to Kaelon on Fri Jun 03 2022 09:02 pm

Why does any given nation need to even maintain its' population?

Especially if you consider automation, quality of life and other impacts
of an ever increasing population.

Nations that have untapped natural resources and plenty of geographic advantages have not yet reached population saturation, and should continue to grow to maximize productivity, tax revenues, and development.

Furthermore, geopolitically, this is ultimately a numbers game. Russia's population has been steadily shrinking and Ukraine's population has been steadily growing; this has led to a dramatic shift and imbalance in geopolitical power between the two, and it was one of the many factors that led Vladimir Putin to elect to invade this year. Because by next year, he'd lose the geopolitical capability to launch an invasion and sustain it against the Ukrainian people. But because Ukraine had continued growing, developing, and expanding - especially after 2014 - Russia encountered a far more developed, populous, and capable opponent.

This should be a good reminder of how, at the end of it all, it does come down to numbers.
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Kaelon wrote to Tracker1 <=-

Russia's population has been steadily shrinking and Ukraine's
population has been steadily growing; this has led to a dramatic shift
and imbalance in geopolitical power between the two, and it was one of
the many factors that led Vladimir Putin to elect to invade this year.

That theory would be supported by the number of Ukrainian citizens alleged
to have been exfiltrated to Russia - over 200,000?




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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Sun Jun 05 2022 08:11 am

That theory would be supported by the number of Ukrainian citizens alleged to have been exfiltrated to Russia - over 200,000?

Exactly. Wiping out Ukraine's culture is the ideological necessity behind what is basically a numerical problem that Russia will solve by kidnapping, brainwashing, and "Russifying" hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians.
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-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Jun 05 2022 04:24 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Sun Jun 05 2022 08:11 am

That theory would be supported by the number of Ukrainian citizens alleged to have been exfiltrated to Russia - over 200,000?

Exactly. Wiping out Ukraine's culture is the ideological necessity behind what is basically a numerical problem that Russia will solve by kidnapping, brainwashing, and "Russifying" hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

Where are these reports of exfiltration coming from?

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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed Jun 08 2022 06:45 pm

Where are these reports of exfiltration coming from?

If you research reports, you will see that the United States, NATO, and even the Russians themselves, confirm the strategy of exfiltrating the Ukrainian population. The United Nations has put the official death-count at ~4,000 civilians so far, but both Ukraine and Russia have confirmed tens of thousands of deaths on each side (with Russia acknowledging it is suffering far heavier losses from its botched invasion of Ukraine), and over 4 million refugees, at least 1 million of which were "forcibly relocated" into Russia.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me that Russia is looking to un-make Ukraine. But it will assuredly fail.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

---
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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Thu Jun 09 2022 12:55 pm

If you research reports, you will see that the United States, NATO, and even the Russians themselves, confirm the strategy of exfiltrating the Ukrainian population. The United Nations has put the official death-count at ~4,000 civilians so far, but both Ukraine and Russia have confirmed tens of thousands of deaths on each side (with Russia acknowledging it is suffering far heavier losses from its botched invasion of Ukraine), and over 4 million refugees, at least 1 million of which were "forcibly relocated" into Russia.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me that Russia is looking to un-make Ukraine. But it will assuredly fail.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

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Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

Seems pretty cut and dry to me that Russia is looking to un-make
Ukraine. But it will assuredly fail. _____

But at what cost to Ukraine, and the world? Ukraine's harvested wheat is dissapearing into Russia, and future harvests are in jeopardy.

Even if Russia loses, Ukraine loses too.

I'd love to see reparations, but I'm not optimistic.


... Would you like to go back?
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
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Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering
how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.


... Would you like to go back?
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:02 am

Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering
how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.

I don't think they'll stop there. The "Rules Based Order" is at war with Russia and China and perhaps other allies.

We're the new empire the world is fighting against.

---
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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:02 am

Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering
how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.

... Would you like to go back?

i would not fuck with the russians. they are way too smart.
usa should stay out of it.
---
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: MRO to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Jun 10 2022 11:31 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:02 am

Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.

... Would you like to go back?

i would not fuck with the russians. they are way too smart.
usa should stay out of it.

The Russians are proving themsleves in the Ukraine to be way behind the
curve. last time I checked they had lost over 14 generals and 40 colonels
in combat. They lack secure comms, and use cell phones and cheap Chinese baofeng commercial band radios. Ukrainian artillery is dead nutz accurate be cause it is fed GPS coordinates from Russian troop's and officers phones.
This is not a new idea. Back in the 90's during the Bosnian conflict officers responsible for war crimes were using unsecured cell phones, and were easily caught.

Their 40 mile convoy was impressive until it ran out of gas and the dry
rotted Chinese tires tore apart. Their latest planes capable of dropping guided munitions are dropping dumb iron bombs (and missing) due to lack of guided muntions. Their tanks are easy prey for drones dropping RPG shaped charges with 3d printed fins.

Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy over
and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.

---
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Sat Jun 11 2022 10:20 pm

i would not fuck with the russians. they are way too smart.
usa should stay out of it.

The Russians are proving themsleves in the Ukraine to be way behind the curve. last time I checked they had lost over 14 generals and 40 colonels in combat. They lack secure comms, and use cell phones and cheap Chinese baofeng commercial band radios. Ukrainian artillery is dead nutz accurate be cause it is fed GPS coordinates from Russian troop's and officers phones. This is not a new idea. Back in the 90's during the Bosnian conflict officers responsible for war crimes were using unsecured cell phones, and were easily caught.

Their 40 mile convoy was impressive until it ran out of gas and the dry rotted Chinese tires tore apart. Their latest planes capable of dropping guided munitions are dropping dumb iron bombs (and missing) due to lack of guided muntions. Their tanks are easy prey for drones dropping RPG shaped charges with 3d printed fins.

Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy over and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.

if you say so.

"Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighboring Bakhmut those with nowhere else to go brace for their arrival
5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
By Ben Wedeman, CNN

Updated 9:40 AM ET, Sun June 12, 2022"

rolling stone:

"`They're Wiping Us From Earth': Evading Russian Artillery With a Ukrainian Military Unit"

"Russia is now in control of much of Severodonetsk, the epicenter of the battle for Ukraine's eastern Donbas region
By Josh Pennington, Irene Nasser and Jorge Engels, CNN

Updated 8:45 PM ET, Sat June 11, 2022

"
Have a look inside Russia's new 'Tasty' McDonald's replacement
Close
The first of Russia's rebranded McDonald's has opened in Moscow, after the famous fast food brand ended all operations in the country.

Last month McDonald's announced the closure of all restaurants in the Russia, citing the "humanitarian crisis" and "unpredictable operating environment" caused by the war in Ukraine.

The fast food company sold more than 800 restaurants to Russian businessman Alexander Govor.

The branches will now reopen under the new name of "Vkusno i Tochka", which translates to"Tasty and that's it".

The BBC's Russia editor Steve Rosenberg visited the Moscow restaurant on its first day."

and russia put it's money in chinese banks.
---
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jun 12 2022 09:07 am

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Sat Jun 11 2022 10:20 pm

i would not fuck with the russians. they are way too smart.
usa should stay out of it.

The Russians are proving themsleves in the Ukraine to be way behind the curve. last time I checked they had lost over 14 generals and 40 colonel in combat. They lack secure comms, and use cell phones and cheap Chinese baofeng commercial band radios. Ukrainian artillery is dead nutz accurat be cause it is fed GPS coordinates from Russian troop's and officers phon This is not a new idea. Back in the 90's during the Bosnian conflict officers responsible for war crimes were using unsecured cell phones, and were easily caught.

Their 40 mile convoy was impressive until it ran out of gas and the dry rotted Chinese tires tore apart. Their latest planes capable of dropping guided munitions are dropping dumb iron bombs (and missing) due to lack o guided muntions. Their tanks are easy prey for drones dropping RPG shape charges with 3d printed fins.

Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy ove and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.

if you say so.

"Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighboring B 5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
By Ben Wedeman, CNN

Updated 9:40 AM ET, Sun June 12, 2022"

rolling stone:

"`They're Wiping Us From Earth': Evading Russian Artillery With a Ukrainian

"Russia is now in control of much of Severodonetsk, the epicenter of the bat for Ukraine's eastern Donbas region
By Josh Pennington, Irene Nasser and Jorge Engels, CNN

Updated 8:45 PM ET, Sat June 11, 2022

"
Have a look inside Russia's new 'Tasty' McDonald's replacement
Close
The first of Russia's rebranded McDonald's has opened in Moscow, after the f

Last month McDonald's announced the closure of all restaurants in the Russia

The fast food company sold more than 800 restaurants to Russian businessman

The branches will now reopen under the new name of "Vkusno i Tochka", which

The BBC's Russia editor Steve Rosenberg visited the Moscow restaurant on its

and russia put it's money in chinese banks.

The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country
under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm

if you say so.

"Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighboring B 5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
By Ben Wedeman, CNN

Updated 9:40 AM ET, Sun June 12, 2022"

rolling stone:

"`They're Wiping Us From Earth': Evading Russian Artillery With a Ukrainian

"Russia is now in control of much of Severodonetsk, the epicenter of the bat for Ukraine's eastern Donbas region
By Josh Pennington, Irene Nasser and Jorge Engels, CNN

Updated 8:45 PM ET, Sat June 11, 2022

"
Have a look inside Russia's new 'Tasty' McDonald's replacement
Close
The first of Russia's rebranded McDonald's has opened in Moscow, after the f

Last month McDonald's announced the closure of all restaurants in the Russia

The fast food company sold more than 800 restaurants to Russian businessman

The branches will now reopen under the new name of "Vkusno i Tochka", which

The BBC's Russia editor Steve Rosenberg visited the Moscow restaurant on its

and russia put it's money in chinese banks.

The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.

You do realise that Ukraine is a large country, right? No way they could capture it in two months.

During the start of their capaign, they had quite a significant rate of land capture, comparable to other succesful operations such as the invasion of normandy and desert storm.

---
■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm

and russia put it's money in chinese banks.

The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.

are you there? are you some military genius?

this is from the washington post today:
"Ukraine, on the brink of losing the eastern region of Luhansk to Russia, is warning that its outgunned military desperately needs faster deliveries of Western arms. Fierce street fighting is continuing in the strategic city of Severodonetsk, but "most of the city is controlled by Russians," the Luhansk governor said Saturday. An adviser to Ukraine's government said its forces could respond with only about one artillery round for every 10 fired by Russia.

The fighting continues despite about 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers already having died during the invasion, a Ukrainian military adviser said Saturday. Ukraine recently noted that between 100 and 200 soldiers are killed each day."

so did they run away that time?
i'm sure russia will lose any day now. expecially with the sanctions we put on them and the weapons we give ukraine.

did you see the threat that ukranian politician said where if russia won, the ukraine would join with russia and go against the west?

here is an article where joe biden said we were giving ukraine information about a possible russian invasion and they ignored the info.
https://apnews.com/85a2489b4fe1042cd03b0ae6f4421a04

ukraine is a corrupt country. they are also full of nazis. just the other
day they posted a pic of a ukrainian inspecting damage of a vehicle and he has a swastika on his arm https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/06/reuters-posts-photos-hoping-generate-western-sympathy-ukrainian-cause-accidentally-include-photo-ukrainian-nazi/?utm_source=Gab&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons

https://preview.tinyurl.com/27m2re4z

i think russia stopping ukraine from joining nato and demilitarising them
is a very important. they should remain neutral.
---
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Boraxman to Moondog on Mon Jun 13 2022 10:09 am

You do realise that Ukraine is a large country, right? No way they could capture it in two months.

i don't think he can even find it on a map. he probably thinks it's some tiny country.

it's the 2nd largest european country.
https://i.imgur.com/rUS5qlV.png

During the start of their capaign, they had quite a significant rate of land capture, comparable to other succesful operations such as the invasion of normandy and desert storm.

the media is making people stupid.
they were offering opinion pieces about how good the ukraine army was
and how russia didn't stand a change. then they still had to deliver the facts on how well the russian army was doing.
---
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jun 12 2022 09:07 am

Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy over
and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.

if you say so.

"Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighboring Bakhmut those wit
5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
By Ben Wedeman, CNN

[snips snip snip]

Something I have learnt from watching lots and lots of war movies from the 30s and 40s is that
once a real conflict kicks in, the propaganda machines of every nation involved will crank
bullshit non stop until no information source remains to be believed.

Japanesse media in WWII was all about how poorly equiped the Allies were, how they lacked
discipline and how they could not build a structured army and how their officers were clueless.
Does this sound familiar to you?

Meanwhile WWII Chinesse movies were about how poorly equipped and stupid Japanesse troops were,
how they lacked discipline and how they could not build an structured army and how their
officers were clueless.

I am sure you can guess the theme of American WWII movies. Actually, American movies spiced it
up by adding an extra trope: that an American who has been a bastard can redeem himself and be
remembered as a hero if he does the right thing and kills nazies and japs.

So I am kind of skeptic regarding claims that this faction or that faction are losing because
they are ill equipped or whatever. That is what everybody has been claiming to boost morale for
centuries already XD



--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm

The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.

They may be less than people was expecting them to be, but Russia is not fighting Ukraine. It
is fighting Ukraine + Europe + the US. The latter two are concealed behind proxies but they are
clearly there.

The US could invade Mexico in a heart beat, unless Mexican troops had been armed by foreigner
superpowers, there was international presure to debilitate the USD and its marketeability
around the world, and Mexico itself was packed with Chinesse-funded mercenaries which "weren't
actually there".

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: MRO to Boraxman on Sun Jun 12 2022 11:07 pm

During the start of their capaign, they had quite a significant rate of land
capture, comparable to other succesful operations such as the invasion of normandy and desert storm.

the media is making people stupid.

I am not sure, but if memory serves me well, German radio stations were telling the population
that the German army was doing great during the Russian campaign in WWII. They only bothered
notifying that somewhing was not going according to the plan once Stalin kicked the nazies out
of Stalingrad, despite the fact it was notorious that things were going south for the nazies
some time before that.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Arelor to Moondog on Mon Jun 13 2022 06:20 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm

The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They run faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the force people have feared.

They may be less than people was expecting them to be, but Russia is not fighting Ukraine. It is fighting Ukraine + Europe + the US. The latter two are concealed behind proxies but they are clearly there.

and also remember that china is on russia's side.
---
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Arelor to MRO on Mon Jun 13 2022 06:25 pm

During the start of their capaign, they had quite a significant rate of land
capture, comparable to other succesful operations such as the invasion of normandy and desert storm.

the media is making people stupid.

I am not sure, but if memory serves me well, German radio stations were telling the population
that the German army was doing great during the Russian campaign in WWII. They only bothered
notifying that somewhing was not going according to the plan once Stalin kicked the nazies out
of Stalingrad, despite the fact it was notorious that things were going south for the nazies
some time before that.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

A coversation overheard in Berlin at the end of WWII.

"How did you know that we were losing the war?"

"Our victories were getting closer and closer."

---
■ Synchronet ■ MiND'S EYE BBS - Melb, Australia - mindseye.synchronetbbs.org

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jun 12 2022 11:04 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm

and russia put it's money in chinese banks.

The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the forc people have feared.

are you there? are you some military genius?

this is from the washington post today:
"Ukraine, on the brink of losing the eastern region of Luhansk to Russia, is f the city is controlled by Russians," the Luhansk governor said Saturday. A

The fighting continues despite about 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers already havin

so did they run away that time?
i'm sure russia will lose any day now. expecially with the sanctions we put

did you see the threat that ukranian politician said where if russia won, th

here is an article where joe biden said we were giving ukraine information a https://apnews.com/85a2489b4fe1042cd03b0ae6f4421a04

ukraine is a corrupt country. they are also full of nazis. just the other day they posted a pic of a ukrainian inspecting damage of a vehicle and he h /?utm_source=Gab&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons

https://preview.tinyurl.com/27m2re4z

i think russia stopping ukraine from joining nato and demilitarising them
is a very important. they should remain neutral.

Sounds like pro-Putin propaganda. When Zelinsky came in to power, he was the anti-corruption president, pusihing Russian oligarchs out of positions of power. Nazi grafitti was creditied to these oligarchs as part of creating negative press, and that's what Putin does to justify all of his actions.

Back tot he convoy near the beginning of the occupation, that was a move out
of the US playbook and was also referred to as a blitz. In Iraq this tactic was used to take key cities as fast as possible. The Russians ran ot of gas, lost vehicles due to lack of maintenance, and ignorance of weather and ground conditions. Tanks are targets when left in the open sitting still. Trying
to drive through thawing Ukraine mud jokingly called rasputina was a great
way to stall tanks out in the open. Neither side has air superiority from my understanding. The skys are not patrolled and planes capable of using precision muntions are missing targets with dumb bombs. There have been mass desertions of Russian troops and pictures ont he news of rifles and packs
left behind. The russians are traind to suppress civilians rather than fight against conventional forces. Any chances of a decisive victory have passed.

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go
to war first and then seek to win. In Russia's case, they had a good plan
that was screwed by their logisitics and years of corrupt officers stealing
the government's money from their army.

---
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Arelor to MRO on Mon Jun 13 2022 06:14 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jun 12 2022 09:07 am

Soldiers get exposed in the open, retreat, then try the same strategy and over with no change. No smoke for cover, and no suppressing fire.

if you say so.

"Russians are on the verge of capturing key Ukrainian city. In neighborin 5/23/18 CNN London Ben Wedeman
By Ben Wedeman, CNN

[snips snip snip]

Something I have learnt from watching lots and lots of war movies from the 3 once a real conflict kicks in, the propaganda machines of every nation invol bullshit non stop until no information source remains to be believed.

Japanesse media in WWII was all about how poorly equiped the Allies were, ho discipline and how they could not build a structured army and how their offi Does this sound familiar to you?

Meanwhile WWII Chinesse movies were about how poorly equipped and stupid Jap how they lacked discipline and how they could not build an structured army a officers were clueless.

I am sure you can guess the theme of American WWII movies. Actually, America up by adding an extra trope: that an American who has been a bastard can red remembered as a hero if he does the right thing and kills nazies and japs.

So I am kind of skeptic regarding claims that this faction or that faction a they are ill equipped or whatever. That is what everybody has been claiming centuries already XD

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

Fog of war and porpaganda are tools used by both sides. Best way to keep
track of losses is count the refrigerator cars full of corpses and measure
the size of mass graves. Counting dead vehicles and comparing them to the enemies' claims tells it's own story. So does watching drone footage or live footage of vehicles being destroyed.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Arelor to Moondog on Mon Jun 13 2022 06:20 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 12 2022 02:16 pm

The Russian super power as we feared them to be should've had the country under seige in two months. They're good at massacring civillians. They faster when ambushed versus standing their ground. they are not the forc people have feared.

They may be less than people was expecting them to be, but Russia is not fig is fighting Ukraine + Europe + the US. The latter two are concealed behind p clearly there.

The US could invade Mexico in a heart beat, unless Mexican troops had been a superpowers, there was international presure to debilitate the USD and its m around the world, and Mexico itself was packed with Chinesse-funded mercenar actually there".

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

The Russians ran out of gas rolling into Kiev happened way before the other countries began sending aide. Other than missiles and drones, surplus tanks from the 70's and 80's are being donated. These donated weapons are being piloted by their regular army, not foriegn fighters brought in to supplement their forces. Granted this equipment is old, but not obsolete, but than
again it doens't have the same systems an M1 Abrams would have either.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to MRO on Tue Jun 14 2022 01:14 pm

Sounds like pro-Putin propaganda.

it's the facts.

When Zelinsky came in to power, he was
the anti-corruption president, pusihing Russian oligarchs out of positions of power.

why is he a millionaire? he's not that big of a celebrity.
why are there so many experimental labs there?
anti corruption? yeah right

Nazi grafitti was creditied to these oligarchs as part of
creating negative press, and that's what Putin does to justify all of his actions.

routers litterally posted a photo the other day with a ukraining. he had a big fucking swastika on his arm.
https://i.imgur.com/psSuPPW.png

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors

go
to war first and then seek to win.

oh, you are talking about sun tzu.
they didnt have nukes back then.

In Russia's case, they had a good plan

that was screwed by their logisitics and years of corrupt officers stealing

so what are you worried about? according to you russia is an army of idiots with rotten out tires. they run from every battle, right?

---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Tue Jun 14 2022 01:30 pm

The Russians ran out of gas rolling into Kiev happened way before the other countries began sending aide. Other than missiles and drones, surplus tanks from the 70's and 80's are being donated. These donated weapons are being piloted by their regular army, not foriegn fighters brought in to supplement their forces. Granted this equipment is old, but not obsolete, but than again it doens't have the same systems an M1 Abrams would have either.

If we have learnt something from the Western fuckups in the Middle East is that we may
expect superpowers funding mercs as a way to send troops in without having to send
troops.

I know it sounds like speculation, but it is a matter of statistics. If it is always
done and they have the motive and resources this time I see no reason why they aren't
doing it today XD Having Marines on the ground is a political time bomb but having
shadow soldiers that are not there is trouble-free, and everyboy is doing it so they
can't accuse you of bringing mercs in because you will accuse them back.

Besides, when complex equipment is sent to ANY industry it usually comes with an
operator included by contract. My clinic does not buy new prothesics unless they
either come with a techniccian to either use them or teach our surgeon how they work.
I'd bet three bags of potatoes that drones etc. come with at least some techs included. Else, why would anybody bring in equipment nobody knows to use?




--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Arelor to Moondog on Wed Jun 15 2022 06:12 am

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Tue Jun 14 2022 01:30 pm

The Russians ran out of gas rolling into Kiev happened way before the oth countries began sending aide. Other than missiles and drones, surplus ta from the 70's and 80's are being donated. These donated weapons are bein piloted by their regular army, not foriegn fighters brought in to supplem their forces. Granted this equipment is old, but not obsolete, but than again it doens't have the same systems an M1 Abrams would have either.

If we have learnt something from the Western fuckups in the Middle East is t expect superpowers funding mercs as a way to send troops in without having t troops.

I know it sounds like speculation, but it is a matter of statistics. If it i done and they have the motive and resources this time I see no reason why th doing it today XD Having Marines on the ground is a political time bomb but shadow soldiers that are not there is trouble-free, and everyboy is doing it can't accuse you of bringing mercs in because you will accuse them back.

Besides, when complex equipment is sent to ANY industry it usually comes wit operator included by contract. My clinic does not buy new prothesics unless either come with a techniccian to either use them or teach our surgeon how t I'd bet three bags of potatoes that drones etc. come with at least some tech included. Else, why would anybody bring in equipment nobody knows to use?

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Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to less experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion is a
way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person with a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skills trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.


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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 09:53 am

Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to less experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion is a way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person with a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skills trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.

Actually I have heard of some CoD personality joining in (can't remember which side) and getting blasted in the first 4 minutes of real battle, now you mention it.

I guess taking cover and waiting for twelve seconds behind a wall does not remove bullet wounds in real life as well as it does in Call of Duty :-(

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Arelor to Moondog on Wed Jun 15 2022 03:31 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 09:53 am

Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to less experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion is way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person with a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skil trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.

Actually I have heard of some CoD personality joining in (can't remember whi side) and getting blasted in the first 4 minutes of real battle, now you mention it.

I guess taking cover and waiting for twelve seconds behind a wall does not remove bullet wounds in real life as well as it does in Call of Duty :-(

--
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Yeah, joining a foriegn war where no one speaks your language well, and no pre vious history of military training with aspirations of being an operator are
no promises of success.

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Arelor to Moondog on Wed Jun 15 2022 03:31 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 09:53 am

Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to less experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion is a way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person with a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skills trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.

Actually I have heard of some CoD personality joining in (can't remember which side) and getting blasted in the first 4 minutes of real battle, now you mention it.

i saw multiple instances of this. also these's a bunch of reddit nerds that were giving military advice and trying to cordinate groups to go to ukraine.

there's a young father with little kids who was ex military who went over there and died. that's just stupid.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 11:00 pm

Yeah, joining a foriegn war where no one speaks your language well, and no pre vious history of military training with aspirations of being an operator are
no promises of success.

the french foreign legion makes them learn french and they pretty much walk everywhere. they do eat well, it seems.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: MRO to Arelor on Thu Jun 16 2022 05:28 am

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Arelor to Moondog on Wed Jun 15 2022 03:31 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 09:53 am

Outside contractors are a way to introduce experienced trainers to les experienced troops. Volunteer forces such as their own foreign legion a way to accept foriegn fighters into service. The down side of volunteer outside forces is there are times they ask for any person wi a pulse. Imagine some CoD console jockey with no real servcie and no language skills trying to convince an officer they deserve to be a sniper.

Actually I have heard of some CoD personality joining in (can't remember which side) and getting blasted in the first 4 minutes of real battle, no you mention it.

i saw multiple instances of this. also these's a bunch of reddit nerds that

there's a young father with little kids who was ex military who went over th

A few years ago there was a TV seires called Fighting ISIS. The show was documentary style, and followed 2 or 3 American soldiers that volunteered to fight withthe Krds against ISIS in Iraq, then follow them into Syria.
Another subject was a medic working with a doctors without borders style
group. they would follow the combat with a maekshift hospital

The volunteers were all vets who came back and got acclimated to that life,
and were completely funded by themselves and family.

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: MRO to Moondog on Thu Jun 16 2022 05:28 am

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Wed Jun 15 2022 11:00 pm

Yeah, joining a foriegn war where no one speaks your language well, and n pre vious history of military training with aspirations of being an opera are
no promises of success.

the french foreign legion makes them learn french and they pretty much walk

Makes sense. Their basic training cadre probably speaks several languages,
and the time they spend in training (combat and daily operations) is much longer than most internal forces.

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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:38 pm

The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

Agreed. There is a lot of scholarship inside of Russia's own military academies detailing that they do not believe they have the manpower capabilities to even make further significant advances, and given the Ukrainian army's resilience at defending and recapturing their territory, I think it's only a matter of time before Russia feels humiliated enough to justify nuclear solutions to their people problems.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:01 am

But at what cost to Ukraine, and the world? Ukraine's harvested wheat is dissapearing into Russia, and future harvests are in jeopardy.

Even if Russia loses, Ukraine loses too.

I'd love to see reparations, but I'm not optimistic.

Certainly the West is getting nervous because it is increasingly looking like a total humiliation for Russia, and there isn't a path for Russia to have even a surface-level "victory" to bow out of this conflict. Ukraine is poised to retake Donbas and even eject Russia from Crimea. But before this happens, Russia will assuredly move towards a nuclear solution.

I suspect that this plays out with a settlement, both with Ukraine and internally in Russia. President Putin's gamble has been catastrophic, and it is clear (and confirmed) that he has terminal cancer, so I think it's likely (given the Russia M.O. in situations like this) that he will be "relocated to a hospital," and some lieutenant (probably Medvedev, at this stage, given the incompetence of Shiogu's management as Min. of Defense) will be tapped to end this war, reconcile with the West, and figure out how to salvage some semblance of Russia's reputation.

But it will be ugly.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Sat Jun 18 2022 05:26 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:38 pm

The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

Agreed. There is a lot of scholarship inside of Russia's own military acade recapturing their territory, I think it's only a matter of time before Russi _____
-=: Kaelon :=-

Russia wants the Ukraine for its resources. I doubt they would resort to
nukes on land they wish to occupy. Who would take a dump in th ecoffee pot because they want the coffee all to themselves? It's hard to "Russianize" a country if you give them a long lasting reminded why they shoudl hate you.

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Kaelon on Sun Jun 19 2022 04:29 pm

Russia wants the Ukraine for its resources. I doubt they would resort to nukes on land they wish to occupy. Who would take a dump in th ecoffee pot because they want the coffee all to themselves? It's hard to "Russianize" a country if you give them a long lasting reminded why they shoudl hate you.

I agree, but Russia can ill-afford outright humiliation and Putin's greatest fear is a stable, thriving, Slavic Democracy on his borders. He already has that with the Baltic Republics (which, let's be clear, he needs to invade next), but Ukraine poses a huge geopolitical risk for Russia. If Ukraine outright defeats Russia and starts recapturing Crimea, Donbas, and making advances against Rostov, the use of nukes is a given, essentially to force capitulation.

Russia has huge manpower problems right now, and its advances are costing it way too much to justify the continuation of this war. But by most measures, this war will last years if left to its own devices.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Kaelon to Moondog on Thu Jun 23 2022 06:42 am

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Kaelon on Sun Jun 19 2022 04:29 pm

Russia wants the Ukraine for its resources. I doubt they would resort to nukes on land they wish to occupy. Who would take a dump in th ecoffee p because they want the coffee all to themselves? It's hard to "Russianize country if you give them a long lasting reminded why they shoudl hate you

I agree, but Russia can ill-afford outright humiliation and Putin's greatest
huge geopolitical risk for Russia. If Ukraine outright defeats Russia and s

Russia has huge manpower problems right now, and its advances are costing it _____
-=: Kaelon :=-

Putin will have the media spin the outcome to favor him no matter what. They don't have to save face. They'll make it up

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Kaelon to Moondog on Thu Jun 23 2022 06:42 am

_____

I don't think a proper war will last many years. With the debt bubble about to explode
in Europe and the bank about to stop purchasing more debt from countries that need to
sell debt in order not to go bankrupt, I think that if Russia is not forced to give up
soon enough, a number of European countries will got "crack".

It is interesting to notice the media is barely covering the fact we are at the brink
of a monetary apocalypse. This being Spain, the mood seems bright and party-like on
the streets but once you get people's tongue lose with beer the mood is quite fatalistic. Industries that used to be employment powerhouses here are cutting down
production of goods for which there is demand because there are no raw materials or,
if they are available, they are too expensive to produce an end product at a price
people may pay. This reflects in people getting sent to unemployment.

Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of three months. That
automatically refects in the prices and availability of hen derivated food. You get
the idea.

Anybody who wants to obtain a military victory over us needs not seek victory. He only
has to outlasts us.


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Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of three months. That automatically refects in the prices and availability of
hen derivated food. You get the idea.

Doomsayers in the US are panicked about the price of feed and hay. It's
going to get ugly.


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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Fri Jun 24 2022 06:44 am

Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of three months. That automatically refects in the prices and availability of hen derivated food. You get the idea.

Doomsayers in the US are panicked about the price of feed and hay. It's going to get ugly.

all the prices are going through the roof. fish , beef, chicken.
soda, water, everything. not one thing is cheaper.

build back better.

atleast no mean tweets. and dont give me that 'it's happening all over the world' bullshit. when the usa sneezes, other countries catch a cold. we could have got it under control over here.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Fri Jun 24 2022 06:44 am

Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of thr months. That automatically refects in the prices and availability of hen derivated food. You get the idea.

Doomsayers in the US are panicked about the price of feed and hay. It's going to get ugly.

Hay is not an issue here by the moment, but only because this area is rich
in grass and green stuff and we have had great weather for grass production this year. I have stockpiled hay for the whole year already and so far the
deal has been fine.

Feed is getting expensive as heck since it requires grain, and grain
production last year was a bit disasterous. When you add inflation it gets
very ugly. One of Spain's top snack vendors has announced they are cutting
down production because the amount of affordable grain is very reduced. I am not nervous about the feed because my horses have hay and pasture grass for
the main part, but sporting or work horses with feed-intensive diets are in
for a bad year.

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Arelor to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Jun 24 2022 01:35 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Fri Jun 24 2022 06:44 am

Arelor wrote to Kaelon <=-

Chicken food's price has multiplied by around two in a matter of thr months. That automatically refects in the prices and availability of hen derivated food. You get the idea.

Doomsayers in the US are panicked about the price of feed and hay. It's going to get ugly.

Hay is not an issue here by the moment, but only because this area is rich in grass and green stuff and we have had great weather for grass production this year. I have stockpiled hay for the whole year already and so far the deal has been fine.

Feed is getting expensive as heck since it requires grain, and grain production last year was a bit disasterous. When you add inflation it gets very ugly. One of Spain's top snack vendors has announced they are cutting down production because the amount of affordable grain is very reduced. I am not nervous about the feed because my horses have hay and pasture grass for the main part, but sporting or work horses with feed-intensive diets are in for a bad year.

--
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Hay is heavy. Big heavy things require fuel to move. Fuel is expensive.


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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Moondog to Arelor on Sat Jun 25 2022 12:23 pm

Hay is heavy. Big heavy things require fuel to move. Fuel is expensive.

Yes, of course, but here I am talking about moving the hay from a field in front of my hous, or
the next one, or the next one. It is not like I am having the hay shipped from a different
village or even a different road. ANd there is plenty of it everywhere this year.

Problems come when the year comes dry so not much of it grows. Then you have to haul the hay
from somewhere else or whatever and it is a pain in the ass XD

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Hello Arelor!

** On Sunday 26.06.22 - 10:52, Arelor wrote to Moondog:

Problems come when the year comes dry so not much of it
grows. Then you have to haul the hay from somewhere else or
whatever and it is a pain in the ass XD

I thought you would opt for the horsepowered version in those
circumstances not the asspowered one!



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Re: Great Replacement The
By: Ogg to Arelor on Tue Jun 28 2022 10:00 pm

Hello Arelor!

** On Sunday 26.06.22 - 10:52, Arelor wrote to Moondog:

Problems come when the year comes dry so not much of it
grows. Then you have to haul the hay from somewhere else or
whatever and it is a pain in the ass XD

I thought you would opt for the horsepowered version in those
circumstances not the asspowered one!

Everytime I mention that to my darlings, they kiss me in the face but they show no
sign of wanting to do the work.

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Fri Jun 24 2022 04:14 am

I don't think a proper war will last many years. With the debt bubble about to explode in Europe and the bank about to stop purchasing more debt from countries that need to sell debt in order not to go bankrupt, I think that if Russia is not forced to give up soon enough, a number of European countries will got "crack".

I agree that the economic picture is dire, but I don't think one can solely attribute it to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The global supply chain remains (irretrievably, according to many economists) broken on the other side of the Pandemic (which, let's face it, is not yet really over, despite everyone's best wishes). Governments printing money have created the second serious blow with radicalized inflation that is truly "cracking" the socioeconomic classes and pushing us well past the Gilded Age in terms of the gulf between haves-and-have-nots. Russia's invasion is partly responsible for a disruption in the global grain supply, but it has also galvanized both Europe and NATO as a whole by shaking it out of its delusion of a "post-war" world order.

Anybody who wants to obtain a military victory over us needs not seek victory. He only has to outlasts us.

Very true. There are deep systemic institutional problems in the European Union. But the speed with which France, Germany, and much of the EU's core countries have lept to move away from Russian gas and towards self-sustainability, not to mention radical investment in their own militaries, reflects a deep disquiet with Russia's invasion.

Furthermore, Russia has demonstrated itself to being a paper tiger. Its military failures are so vast that any outright "outlasting" of Europe will come at tremendous cost and certainly lead to its general collapse. China, on the other hand, is quite another story.

_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon Jul 04 2022 11:58 am

I agree that the economic picture is dire, but I don't think one can solely attribute it to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The global supply chain remains (irretrievably, according to many economists) broken on the other side of the Pandemic (which, let's face it, is not yet really over, despite everyone's best wishes). Governments printing money have created the second serious blow with radicalized inflation that is truly "cracking" the socioeconomic classes and pushing us well past the Gilded Age in terms of the gulf between haves-and-have-nots. Russia's invasion is partly responsible for a disruption in the global grain supply, but it has also galvanized both Europe and NATO as a whole by shaking it out of its delusion of a "post-war" world order.

The quantitative easing that the goverment carried out back in 2020 when they decided that almost 100% of the population would become "public workers" has finally trickled down through all the asset classes to its final resting place in consumer goods. This is why I laughed when the FED were calling the inflation transitory as there was never anything transitory about it. They were lying to us all along because the alternative would have been an earlier recession which the Trump administaration would have tried to avoid at all costs. This Ukraine war is a convenient scapegoat for our economic woes.

Very true. There are deep systemic institutional problems in the European Union. But the speed with which France, Germany, and much of the EU's core countries have lept to move away from Russian gas and towards self-sustainability, not to mention radical investment in their own militaries, reflects a deep disquiet with Russia's invasion.

Furthermore, Russia has demonstrated itself to being a paper tiger. Its military failures are so vast that any outright "outlasting" of Europe will come at tremendous cost and certainly lead to its general collapse. China, on the other hand, is quite another story.

Europe scantioned itself by refusing to purchase oil and gas with Rubles. The public will remember that this winter when energy becomes unaffordable and people have to choose between heating or eating. Heck, there's even discourse regarding rolling blackouts during peak hours.

China are sitting pretty right now and have already made it known that they are sympathetic towards the Russians... The West is not in a good position seeing as almost all manufacturing and production comes from The East.

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costs. This Ukraine war is a convenient scapegoat for our economic woes.

Indeed.

Europe scantioned itself by refusing to purchase oil and gas with Rubles. The public will remember that this winter when energy becomes unaffordable and people have to choose between heating or eating. Heck, there's even discourse regarding rolling blackouts during peak hours.

But, but, but, there are a couple of Europeans in the FIDO Politics echo claiming that all is wonderful on their side of the Atlantic, and that
things are only bad if you are American. :)


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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Thu Jul 07 2022 04:56 pm

costs. This Ukraine war is a convenient scapegoat for our economic woes.

Indeed.

Europe scantioned itself by refusing to purchase oil and gas with Rubles. The public will remember that this winter when energy becomes unaffordable and people have to choose between heating or eating. Heck, there's even discourse regarding rolling blackouts during peak hours.

But, but, but, there are a couple of Europeans in the FIDO Politics echo claiming that all is wonderful on their side of the Atlantic, and that things are only bad if you are American. :)

yeah they're morons. i remember one guy saying he takes a trip to america just to buy pants.

and they were bragging about how great the euro was years ago.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Andeddu to Kaelon on Thu Jul 07 2022 02:19 pm

The quantitative easing that the goverment carried out back in 2020 when they decided that almost 100% of the population would become "public workers" has finally trickled down through all the asset classes to its final resting place in consumer goods. This is why I laughed when the FED were calling the inflation transitory as there was never anything transitory about it.

Completely agree. It's amazing to me how the primary reason that history repeats itself is that people don't understand predictable cause and effect. The quantitative easing, the constant market growth at all costs, the ceaseless bailouts -- they're a repeat of the inflationary behaviors that largely provoked the two global world wars in the early 20th Century. I often tell other kids in the SaaS companies where I work as an executive that the dot-com bust informed us who lived through it what is about to come in software, and that every other middle-manager or executive who hasn't lived through or at least studied it, is full of shit if they predict what they think this is going to look like. Half of all software companies are already insolvent because they had no fundamental underlying go-to-market strategy that was reinforced by actual inherent value streams or sustainable recurring revenue models.



_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Andeddu to Kaelon on Thu Jul 07 2022 02:19 pm

Europe scantioned itself by refusing to purchase oil and gas with Rubles. The public will remember that this winter when energy becomes unaffordable and people have to choose between heating or eating. Heck, there's even discourse regarding rolling blackouts during peak hours.

China are sitting pretty right now and have already made it known that they are sympathetic towards the Russians... The West is not in a good position seeing as almost all manufacturing and production comes from The East.

It's horrifyingly naive. Look at the RUB exchange rate to the USD. Yes, it crashed during the weeks following the invasion, but it was mostly recovered by late April and now, it's higher than it has been in over five years!

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=RUB&to=USD
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Thu Jul 07 2022 04:56 pm

But, but, but, there are a couple of Europeans in the FIDO Politics echo claiming that all is wonderful on their side of the Atlantic, and that things are only bad if you are American. :)

100% not true. The Eurozone is the area which is the most impacted by these political decisions. I am already paying around 2x more than normal for my gas and electricity bills and we have been warned that the prices are going to increase AGAIN this winter. You Americans are complainig about the cost of fuel however we are paying close to 2.40 USD per litre of diesel -- that is almost 11 USD per gallon. The cost of everything has increased substantially and a huge proportion of the population are going to be facing poverty later this year. This is a global economic issue so no one is shielded from this.

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Andeddu to Dumas Walker on Fri Jul 08 2022 03:43 pm

gas and electricity bills and we have been warned that the prices are going to increase AGAIN this winter. You Americans are complainig about the cost of fuel however we are paying close to 2.40 USD per litre of diesel -- that is almost 11 USD per gallon. The cost of everything has increased substantially and a huge proportion of the population are going to be facing poverty later this year. This is a global economic issue so no one is shielded from this.

americans would never tollerate that. but dont test that theory because it's bad enough now. even though prices did drop a bit.

get drilling and get those truckers on the roads.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Andeddu to Dumas Walker on Fri Jul 08 2022 03:43 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Dumas Walker to ANDEDDU on Thu Jul 07 2022 04:56 pm

But, but, but, there are a couple of Europeans in the FIDO Politics echo claiming that all is wonderful on their side of the Atlantic, and that things are only bad if you are American. :)

100% not true. The Eurozone is the area which is the most impacted by these political decisions. I am already paying around 2x more than normal for my g and electricity bills and we have been warned that the prices are going to increase AGAIN this winter. You Americans are complainig about the cost of f however we are paying close to 2.40 USD per litre of diesel -- that is almos 11 USD per gallon. The cost of everything has increased substantially and a huge proportion of the population are going to be facing poverty later this year. This is a global economic issue so no one is shielded from this.

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I am happy because Spain used to be a poor Fascist country, so we have plenty people with experience in how to deal with crap \o/

We rural rednecks have been the lautghing stock of the country for decades, but fact is that during Francoism, when everybody in Spain was poor, the people who lived in rural areas were the people who didn't starve. Nobody lived well - it was a Fascist country - but if you had some square meters of land and a chimney, you had enough to grow vegetables, produce your own eggs, cook it
all, and have spare heat for the house.


It is ironic but I think the people who are going to suffer the most is the people who have been voting for "inflationist" politicians in Spain. Those are typicaly concentrated in cities, and are going to have to buy their lettuces at 10 eurs per Kg. by the look of it.


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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Kaelon to Andeddu on Fri Jul 08 2022 10:32 am

Completely agree. It's amazing to me how the primary reason that history repeats itself is that people don't understand predictable cause and effect. The quantitative easing, the constant market growth at all costs, the ceaseless bailouts -- they're a repeat of the inflationary behaviors that largely provoked the two global world wars in the early 20th Century. I often tell other kids in the SaaS companies where I work as an executive that the dot-com bust informed us who lived through it what is about to come in software, and that every other middle-manager or executive who hasn't lived through or at least studied it, is full of shit if they predict what they think this is going to look like. Half of all software companies are already insolvent because they had no fundamental underlying go-to-market strategy that was reinforced by actual inherent value streams or sustainable recurring revenue models.

Our leaders are at fault for repeatedly selling us out to China for the last 30 years. We've somehow gone from being an economic and manufactuing powerhouse to a hollowed out consumer based society with zero value. There is no viable plan to reduce public services or shrink goverment to a sustainable level and even during the Trump presidency I failed to see any tangible private sector growth.

Every successive goverment appears to believe they can print the difference between tax revenue and outgoings year on year without creating problems down the line. Well they are evidently wrong and the horror show numbers along with the soon-to-be massive rise in unemployment proof in the pudding.

The issue we now have is that the can has been kicked down the road for so long that there is no painless way to remedy the situation. I strongly belive that everything is going to come to a head later this year or next.

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Kaelon to Andeddu on Fri Jul 08 2022 10:35 am

It's horrifyingly naive. Look at the RUB exchange rate to the USD. Yes, it crashed during the weeks following the invasion, but it was mostly recovered by late April and now, it's higher than it has been in over five years!

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=RUB&to=USD

I find it amusing that Western leaders were criticising Putin for refusing to sell energy for USDs when the US sanctioned oligarchs and Russian businesses by freezing their dollar denominated bank accounts. The lack of basic awareness or understanding from our ruling class is astounding.

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: MRO to Andeddu on Fri Jul 08 2022 11:44 pm

americans would never tollerate that. but dont test that theory because it's bad enough now. even though prices did drop a bit.

get drilling and get those truckers on the roads.

The cost of fuel will go a lot higher this winter and nothing will stop that. Biden is selling away your oil reserves to foreign nations which is great, that'll help keep prices down!

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Jul 09 2022 07:18 am

I am happy because Spain used to be a poor Fascist country, so we have plenty people with experience in how to deal with crap \o/

We rural rednecks have been the lautghing stock of the country for decades, but fact is that during Francoism, when everybody in Spain was poor, the people who lived in rural areas were the people who didn't starve. Nobody lived well - it was a Fascist country - but if you had some square meters of land and a chimney, you had enough to grow vegetables, produce your own eggs, cook it
all, and have spare heat for the house.

It is ironic but I think the people who are going to suffer the most is the people who have been voting for "inflationist" politicians in Spain. Those are typicaly concentrated in cities, and are going to have to buy their lettuces at 10 eurs per Kg. by the look of it.

Well it looks like Spain will go back to those days again for at least the next 5-6 years. With the cost of fertilizer rising and historically low crop yields in conjunction with the war which looks likely to spread through Europe, now would be to grow your own food supply. Hard times are coming and it'll be the pampered city folk who are going to struggle the most. I am sadly one of those people in possession with little to no outdoor survival skills.

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Re: Re: Great Replacement The
By: Andeddu to MRO on Sat Jul 09 2022 03:13 pm

americans would never tollerate that. but dont test that theory because it's bad enough now. even though prices did drop a bit.

get drilling and get those truckers on the roads.

The cost of fuel will go a lot higher this winter and nothing will stop that. Biden is selling away your oil reserves to foreign nations which is great, that'll help keep prices down!

well biden is in bed with china so that's why.

honestly the usa has plenty of oil. i worked in the oil industry for almost 2 decades. if they are going to drill we will be fine.

with covid many companies sold out to their competitors so it might be a struggle to meet demands. they will do it, though.
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