So my System has been having issues here and there to no end. I've been at my whits end trying to diagnose issue after issue. The biggest problem I was running into was my games would go into this super low FPS mode randomly. It'd last about a minute or two then go back to normal for a while.

For years I've chalked this issue up to Windows 10 running on an older hardware system (Core2Quad Q9300 chip, nVidia GTX 760, 8GB), or something in Windows causing a headache. I've updated drivers from time to time and I believed the issue resolved, but the issue kept returning.

The other day I was goofing around in The Sims (I have a soft spot for those guys), and it was a particularly hot day in Monterey (92 deg, whew!), and I noticed my slow down buddy was pretty much not going away.

Long story short... heat?

Quick trip to Amazon for some Arctic MX-4 (Thermal paste), borrowed some isopropal alcohol from work, tore open the system, gave it a quick vacume, removed the cpu sink, cleaned old paste, applied new paste (almost broke the cheap stock cpu cooler, removed GPU, cleaned throughly, replaced.

Reboot, and no slow down for an hour. Even bumped up the graphic to max, and while the FPS was lower, no extreme slowdowns.

I love that PCs can be "fixed".

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Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to All on Tue Sep 24 2019 07:38 am

Reboot, and no slow down for an hour. Even bumped up the graphic to max, and while the FPS was lower, no extreme slowdowns.

I love that PCs can be "fixed".

or can they. the damage may already be done.
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Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Android8675 on Tue Sep 24 2019 10:46 pm

Reboot, and no slow down for an hour. Even bumped up the graphic to max, and while the FPS was lower, no extreme slowdowns.

I love that PCs can be "fixed".

or can they. the damage may already be done.

Well, ok I love that PCs don't have a finite life span? LOOKIN AT YOU APPLE!

---
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Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to MRO on Wed Sep 25 2019 07:29 am

Well, ok I love that PCs don't have a finite life span? LOOKIN AT YOU APPLE!

It depends on what device you're talking about. Apple's iPhone and iPad might have a finite lifespan if Apple decides to only go back so far with support with a new version of iOS. But I've herd Mac users often say their Mac computers last a long time, and that Apple tends to support them back fairly far, and that they keep chugging along. And even after Mac OS X stops supporting a certain model of Mac, you could probably install Linux or something on it, or even Windows these days (as long as they keep using Intel processors.. I've heard rumors that Apple might switch their Mac computers over to ARM processors starting next year).

NIghtfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to All on Tue Sep 24 2019 07:38 am

For years I've chalked this issue up to Windows 10 running on an older hardware system (Core2Quad Q9300 chip, nVidia GTX 760, 8GB), or something in Windows causing a headache. I've updated drivers from time to time and I believed the issue resolved, but the issue kept returning.

I just upgraded from a Core 2 Duo to that chip, took the fans out, cleaned them all thoroughly, and even bought a bigger heat sink based on recommendations from the 'net.

Replaced the thermal paste while doing so, and it's running about the same temp as the core 2 duo - with the old heat sink.

I just wish I could max the memory out - right now I have 8 GB of ECC DDR-2, getting it to 16 GB would cost as much as the next newer model with 16GB of regular old DDR-3 RAM.

---
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Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Android8675 on Wed Sep 25 2019 09:50 am

It depends on what device you're talking about. Apple's iPhone and iPad might have a finite lifespan if Apple decides to only go back so far with support with a new version of iOS. But I've herd Mac users
often say their Mac computers last a long time, and that Apple tends to support them back fairly far, and that they keep chugging along. And even after Mac OS X stops supporting a certain model of Mac, you
could probably install Linux or something on it, or even Windows these days (as long as they keep using Intel processors.. I've heard rumors that Apple might switch their Mac computers over to ARM
processors starting next year).

So I have 3 MACs.

An iMac that I use as my desktop - it's a "Late 2013" meaning its about 7 years old. I would love to get a shiny new one, but I just cannot justify it - my iMac works well, its not slow and there is nothing wrong with it at all. I probably use it 10hrs a day, and have done for most of the last 7 years.

My MacBook air is a 2011 - I gave it to my wife after I got the iMac. She uses it everyday for 2-3 hrs and it works a treat.

My MacBook pro is a work issue - its an Early 2015 and I've used it for 4 ish years, mostly when I travel or go into the office. Sadly it works well, I have no problems with it, so I cannot justify requesting an updated one.

Whats impressesd me, I came from a Windows desktop, and I got sick of updates, reboots, updates, reboots and the nail in the coffin for me was hibernation. I would close my windows laptop, only to find that it either didnt hibernate and ran out of power, or blue screened, or locked up - so many times. After a while, it was often faster to shut it down so that I had to reboot it, then resume from hibernation.

I dont think I've ever had that pain with my MACs - so fuge fan.
...δεσ*

... We never know whether we are victors or whether we are defeated.

---
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Re: PCs, General
By: Alterego to Nightfox on Thu Sep 26 2019 08:22 am

updates, reboots, updates, reboots and the nail in the coffin for me was hibernation. I would close my windows laptop, only to find that it either didnt hibernate and ran out of power, or blue screened, or locked up - so many times. After a while, it was often faster to shut it down so that I had to reboot it, then resume from hibernation.

hmm.. I tend to hibernate my work laptop (which uses Windows) instead of turning it off, but normally I think Windows laptops are set up to suspend when you close the lid rather than hibernate. You can still hibernate it though. I tend to just manually hibernate it before I turn it off (click the Start button, then click the arrow next to shut down, and select "Hibernate").

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to MRO on Wed Sep 25 2019 07:29 am

Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Android8675 on Tue Sep 24 2019 10:46 pm

Reboot, and no slow down for an hour. Even bumped up the graphic to ma and while the FPS was lower, no extreme slowdowns.

I love that PCs can be "fixed".

or can they. the damage may already be done.

Well, ok I love that PCs don't have a finite life span? LOOKIN AT YOU APPLE!

your components were stressed from overheating, so there's a lot of things that could have happened to shorten your computer's life span.
---
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Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Android8675 on Wed Sep 25 2019 10:03 pm

Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to MRO on Wed Sep 25 2019 07:29 am

Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Android8675 on Tue Sep 24 2019 10:46 pm

Reboot, and no slow down for an hour. Even bumped up the graphic to and while the FPS was lower, no extreme slowdowns.

I love that PCs can be "fixed".

or can they. the damage may already be done.

Well, ok I love that PCs don't have a finite life span? LOOKIN AT YOU APP

your components were stressed from overheating, so there's a lot of things t could have happened to shorten your computer's life span.

Speaking of Macs, I was watching one of the retro pc channels on youtube, and one show host mentioned something about early Macs being notorious for leaky capacitors. This is common withold gear, however the issue with whatever
brand they used was the elctrolyte solution would eat away at the circuit
board traces. For those who want an old Mac for collecting or nostalgia purposes, this is the difference between performing a simple capacitor replacement and a major cleanup and restoration.

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Re: PCs, General
By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Sep 26 2019 09:55 am

Speaking of Macs, I was watching one of the retro pc channels on youtube, and one show host mentioned something about early Macs being notorious for leaky capacitors. This is common withold gear, however the issue with

Not too long ago I came across the LGR channel on YouTube. The LGR videos are made by a guy who looks at and collects vintage computer equipment, and his videos bring back a lot of memories for me. If I remember right, he has made one or two videos where he found a new-in-the-box IBM XT from the 80s that hadn't been opened yet, and he got it set up and running. One thing he ended up doing was replacing the BIOS battery on the motherboard with a socket for a coin cell (CR2032?) battery because the old BIOS battery ended up corroding and was no longer working. If that wasn't the LGR guy, maybe it was someone else.

The LGR guy has also made videos showing some of his old-school PCs he has built out of old parts from the late 80s and mid 90s to play old DOS games and such. Fun stuff.. I remember most of the old parts used in those machines (CPUs, sound cards, etc.).

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Moondog on Thu Sep 26 2019 09:58 am

Re: PCs, General
By: Moondog to MRO on Thu Sep 26 2019 09:55 am

Speaking of Macs, I was watching one of the retro pc channels on youtub and one show host mentioned something about early Macs being notorious leaky capacitors. This is common withold gear, however the issue with

Not too long ago I came across the LGR channel on YouTube. The LGR videos a re he found a new-in-the-box IBM XT from the 80s that hadn't been opened yet
BIOS battery ended up corroding and was no longer working. If that wasn't

The LGR guy has also made videos showing some of his old-school PCs he has b ).

Nightfox

I like LGR, and I think he lives nearby the 8-Bit guy. Adrian Black is the
one who I think pointed out the Mac issue. In my personal collection I resurrected a Compac Portable II. The Plus+ hard card no longer worked, and
it needed a AAA sized lithium cell. The BIOs utility for the Compaqs is software based, so there was no way to configure the BIOS without booting
from a floppy. Other than the Plus+ hardd rive on a card, it had two 1.2mb 5.25" floppies. Luckily the BIOS was new enough I could swap in a 3.5"
floppy, and it had the IO card that had the floppy and IDE controller on the same card. A jumper was needed to see a drive (hard card had it's own configuration at bootup) and I also required a dynamic disk overlay program
to trick the older BIOS to recognize a non-supported drive type. Smalles HDD
I had was a 408mb Seagate from my old 486 built in 1990. A portable of 1987 vintage would've had a 20mb drive. Due to the patition program on the DDO disk, I could not use DOS 3.3, which I found on 5.25" floppies. I ened up downloading DR DOS 7 images and unpacked them on several 3.5" floppies. I
used the deluxe setup with network support utilities. Too bad it's Novell IPX/SPX support! The portable also has just 640k of RAM, so i can't install W indows 3.1. I seen the makers of the XTIDE card make a generic 2mb ISA card, however I'm not that deeply invested in paying for the card. I have a 486DX
33 for playing with Win 3.1 and a Pentium 3 667Mhz pc set up to be my
ultimatei DOS machine. It's also my FreeDOS test bed. I'm close to getting Arachne working in DOS so I can browse the internet from a DOS machine. I'm wondering if all the crap that gets thrown on in the background is the reason the browser hangs up?

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Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Android8675 on Wed Sep 25 2019 10:03 pm

Well, ok I love that PCs don't have a finite life span? LOOKIN AT YOU APPLE!

your components were stressed from overheating, so there's a lot of things that could have happened to shorten your computer's life span.

Yes, and when the day comes that the stress and heat completely kills the CPU I'll gladly retire the system and build a new one, or I'll just reaplce the CPU, or replace the mobo and cpu, or maybe I won't do any of that.

Nice to have options.

System is running great now, haven't had a slow down since and I just (finally) updated my BBS to Win7 Guest OS.

Love the PCs, in General.

--
Android8675@ShodansCore

---
■ Synchronet ■ Shodan's Core @ ShodansCore.com

Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to MRO on Sat Sep 28 2019 04:36 pm

Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Android8675 on Wed Sep 25 2019 10:03 pm

Well, ok I love that PCs don't have a finite life span? LOOKIN AT YOU APPLE!

your components were stressed from overheating, so there's a lot of thing that could have happened to shorten your computer's life span.

Yes, and when the day comes that the stress and heat completely kills the CP

Nice to have options.

System is running great now, haven't had a slow down since and I just (final

Love the PCs, in General.

--
Android8675@ShodansCore

Some products do not last a lifetime. Isn't that the idea behind planned obsolescence? I forgot where I read it, however someone stated that modern household appliances have a 10 year lifespan. When i bought my house, I
bought a 10 year old refrigerator, and have been running it for 17 years.
Only issue was the heating elements in the defroster wore out. Spending $200 for parts and service was much cheaper than paying $900-$1000 for a new
fridge. I'm wondering if this 10 year prjected lifespan means it will begin
to fail arouund ten years and need parts, or if there will be a catastrophic failure that forces me to buy a new refrigerator?

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■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: PCs, General
By: Moondog to Android8675 on Sun Sep 29 2019 10:07 am

obsolescence? I forgot where I read it, however someone stated that modern household appliances have a 10 year lifespan. When i bought my house, I bought a 10 year old refrigerator, and have been running it for 17 years. Only issue was the heating elements in the defroster wore out. Spending

It seems that people used to plan to keep things as long as it would last when they bought something, and if something broke with it, the attitude would be to fix it rather than buy a new one. Now it seems like most people would rather buy a new one rather than fix what they have. Sometimes it makes more sense financially to buy a new one though.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Moondog on Sun Sep 29 2019 11:50 am

It seems that people used to plan to keep things as long as it would last wh they bought something, and if something broke with it, the attitude would be fix it rather than buy a new one. Now it seems like most people would rathe buy a new one rather than fix what they have. Sometimes it makes more sense financially to buy a new one though.

my uncle who is an electrician and mechanic calls it the weakest link theory. once you fix one thing and make it 100%, it stresses the other components until the next thing fails, and so on.
---
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Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sun Sep 29 2019 04:40 pm

my uncle who is an electrician and mechanic calls it the weakest link theory. once you fix one thing and make it 100%, it stresses the other components until the next thing fails, and so on.

That sounds just like my car, I replaced the battery the alternator goes out, I replace the alternator the starting motor goes out now I have to replace the power steering pump, your Uncle is a wise man lol.

---
■ Synchronet ■ outwestbbs.com - the Outwest BBS

Re: PCs, General
By: Denn to MRO on Sun Sep 29 2019 04:44 pm

That sounds just like my car, I replaced the battery the alternator goes ou I replace the alternator the starting motor goes out now I have to replace t power steering pump, your Uncle is a wise man lol.

same thing with me. battery -> alternator - > starter
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Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sun Sep 29 2019 04:40 pm

my uncle who is an electrician and mechanic calls it the weakest link theory. once you fix one thing and make it 100%, it stresses the other components until the next thing fails, and so on.

I'm not sure how having a new component would stress the others out. Actually I'd think a failing component would stress the other things out, and fixing it should make things at least a little better. Once a product reaches a certain age though, I wouldn't be surprised to see multiple things start to fail just due to its age.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Denn to MRO on Sun Sep 29 2019 04:44 pm

That sounds just like my car, I replaced the battery the alternator goes out, I replace the alternator the starting motor goes out now I have to replace the power steering pump, your Uncle is a wise man lol.

I wouldn't be surprised to see multiple things start to fail around the same time due to a product's age. After I had my car for about 6 or 7 years, all the taillight bulbs and headlight bulbs burned out within a short amount of time of each other.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to MRO on Sun Sep 29 2019 06:13 pm

Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sun Sep 29 2019 04:40 pm

my uncle who is an electrician and mechanic calls it the weakest link theory. once you fix one thing and make it 100%, it stresses the other components until the next thing fails, and so on.

I'm not sure how having a new component would stress the others out. Actual I'd think a failing component would stress the other things out, and fixing should make things at least a little better. Once a product reaches a certa age though, I wouldn't be surprised to see multiple things start to fail jus due to its age.

i dont know why you cant understand this.
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Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Denn on Sun Sep 29 2019 06:14 pm

Re: PCs, General
By: Denn to MRO on Sun Sep 29 2019 04:44 pm

That sounds just like my car, I replaced the battery the alternator goe out, I replace the alternator the starting motor goes out now I have to replace the power steering pump, your Uncle is a wise man lol.

I wouldn't be surprised to see multiple things start to fail around the same time due to a product's age. After I had my car for about 6 or 7 years, all the taillight bulbs and headlight bulbs burned out within a short amount of time of each other.

that's indicative of another issue. that shouldnt happen.
you had an electrical issue or something else causing this.
---
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Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Moondog on Sun Sep 29 2019 11:50 am

Re: PCs, General
By: Moondog to Android8675 on Sun Sep 29 2019 10:07 am

obsolescence? I forgot where I read it, however someone stated that mod household appliances have a 10 year lifespan. When i bought my house, I bought a 10 year old refrigerator, and have been running it for 17 year Only issue was the heating elements in the defroster wore out. Spending

It seems that people used to plan to keep things as long as it would last wh her than fix what they have. Sometimes it makes more sense financially to b

Nightfox

When it comes to appliances, you may spend less for the replacement or get
much more for the price you previously paid. The other day my father and I were talking about TV's and he recalls when every hardware store had a tube tester for testing vacuum tubes. If your radio, record player, or TV stopped working, the tube tester had a list on it's side of symptoms and showed which numbers you needed to buy replacement tubes. The semiconductor was developed right after WWII, however integrated circuits didn't really (pardon the pun) take off until the space prgram benefitted from multiple transistors on a single die. Designers and service techs shuddered at the idea of tossing out 100 or more transistors on an IC because one transistor failed. The economy
of scale had to catch up to remedy that so replacing one part cost more than replacing an entire IC or even an entire board assembly.

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■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

my uncle who is an electrician and mechanic calls it the weakest link theory. >once you fix one thing and make it 100%, it stresses the other components until
the next thing fails, and so on.

I have heard that theory applied to automobiles before.

---
■ SLMR 2.1a ■ My other computer runs the Enterprise.
■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Denn on Sun Sep 29 2019 06:14 pm

That sounds just like my car, I replaced the battery the alternator
goes out, I replace the alternator the starting motor goes out now I
have to replace the power steering pump, your Uncle is a wise man
lol.

I wouldn't be surprised to see multiple things start to fail around the same time due to a product's age. After I had my car for about 6 or 7 years, all the taillight bulbs and headlight bulbs burned out within a short amount of time of each other.

Same here all my bulbs kept going out then the battery, Alternator, starter power steering pump.
But I was a Mechanic so I save allot by doing my own labor:)
and my car is paid for.

---
■ Synchronet ■ outwestbbs.com - the Outwest BBS

Re: PCs, General
By: Denn to MRO on Sun Sep 29 2019 04:44 pm

Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sun Sep 29 2019 04:40 pm

my uncle who is an electrician and mechanic calls it the weakest link theory. once you fix one thing and make it 100%, it stresses the other components until the next thing fails, and so on.

That sounds just like my car, I replaced the battery the alternator goes ou I replace the alternator the starting motor goes out now I have to replace t power steering pump, your Uncle is a wise man lol.

Car parts fail from all over the car fail for different reasons, however most begin to fail around the same period, partially due to planned obsolescence. You'll have your consumables which are destined to wear out such as brakes and
tires, but it seems like the time a stainless steel brake line corrodes through and bursts, your radiator hoses and other OEM that are the same age
are ready to fail. Only way to make an old car dependable is to completely tear it down to the frame and inspect or replace parts as they go back in.
It can be pricey, however it's way less than a new car.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Quoting MRO to Denn <=-

same thing with me. battery -> alternator - > starter

I replaced a muffler, then the flex pipe at the front blew, then the
back pipe fell off. LOL Thankfully a coat hanger fixed the pipe and
I'm still trying to find a garage to replace the flex pipe without
replacing the cat which is fine.

Shawn

... *Real* sysops disconnect the speakers.

--- EzyBlueWave V3.00 01FB001F
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■ Synchronet ■ thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Android8675 on Wed Sep 25 2019 09:50 am

Well, ok I love that PCs don't have a finite life span? LOOKIN AT YOU APPLE!

It depends on what device you're talking about. Apple's iPhone and iPad might have a finite lifespan if Apple decides to only go back so far with support with a new version of iOS. But I've herd Mac users often say their Mac computers last a long time, and that Apple tends to support them back fairly far, and that they keep chugging along. And even after Mac OS X stops supporting a certain model of Mac, you could probably install Linux or something on it, or even Windows these days (as long as they keep using Intel processors.. I've heard rumors that Apple might switch their Mac computers over to ARM processors starting next year).

Well... I was making a JOKE, but since this year is "The Year of Serious(tm)"

I have a bunch of old iMacs (think G3/CRT type all-in-ones) that run pretty good. I have 2, first gen Intel Mac Pros, can't get anything to run on them because I don't have a fucking iOS copy of I think "Tiger", the systems don't have optical drives (idiot school removed them fearing data loss. LoL), and a bunch of other bullshit that I'm tired of jumping through hoops to get running. Havent tried installing a PC DVD drive into the system yet, but that wouldn't help because finding a compatible OSX install dvd is a pain in the ass, Not enough Apple priates out there. Easier to get WinXP installs.

Macs are.. awful. I love my Apple ][gs, but pretty much anything Apple has released since is just a pain in the ass. My mom's mac book is coming up on 5 years and I can't even figure out how to copy files off her hard drive without using "time flux capacitor", and that backup is only accessable on a new Mac.

iCloud is horrible, Google Drive is a possible solution, but you have to keep a 1tb account because google drive backs up nierly the entire computer.

Modern Macs are purposly "sealed" so you can't fix them if they break, Genious Bar are a bunch of scam artists.

Mom has "memories" on her that system dating back almost 20 years. I have no idea how she managed to get files from her mid-90s PowerMac onto her laptop, most of them won't run because they are PowerPC only.

I have a lot of animosity towards Apple. To this day I just feel they are over priced systems and that Apple has pioneered the concept of "planned obsolessence". I won't deny that their origins were well meaning (remember when every school had at least one Apple ][?), but the company went the wrong way after Jobs got cancer.

...and now I'll just say that Apple Arcade is AMAZING. So there's always hope.

---
■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to Nightfox on Mon Sep 30 2019 08:46 am

released since is just a pain in the ass. My mom's mac book is coming up on 5 years and I can't even figure out how to copy files off her hard drive without using "time flux capacitor", and that backup is only accessable on a new Mac.

Eh, if you just want to copy files off the hard drive, can't you just plug in a USB flash drive and copy files to it?

Mom has "memories" on her that system dating back almost 20 years. I have no idea how she managed to get files from her mid-90s PowerMac onto her laptop, most of them won't run because they are PowerPC only.

Apple likes to change the CPU in their Macs sometimes.. In the past it's worked well overall though. But I don't think you can always expect 20-year-old apps to still run though..

I've heard rumors that Apple may switch from Intel to ARM in their Macs next year. And Microsoft already has a version of Windows 10 that will run on ARM, with an Intel emulator to let it run 32-bit Intel apps for Windows on ARM.

I have a lot of animosity towards Apple. To this day I just feel they are over priced systems and that Apple has pioneered the concept of "planned obsolessence". I won't deny that their origins were well meaning (remember when every school had at least one Apple ][?), but the company went the wrong way after Jobs got cancer.

I'm not a big fan of Apple myself.. Currently I don't have any Apple devices.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to Nightfox on Mon Sep 30 2019 08:46 am

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Android8675 on Wed Sep 25 2019 09:50 am

Well, ok I love that PCs don't have a finite life span? LOOKIN AT YO APPLE!

It depends on what device you're talking about. Apple's iPhone and iPad might have a finite lifespan if Apple decides to only go back so far with support with a new version of iOS. But I've herd Mac users often say the Mac computers last a long time, and that Apple tends to support them back fairly far, and that they keep chugging along. And even after Mac OS X stops supporting a certain model of Mac, you could probably install Linux something on it, or even Windows these days (as long as they keep using Intel processors.. I've heard rumors that Apple might switch their Mac computers over to ARM processors starting next year).

Well... I was making a JOKE, but since this year is "The Year of Serious(tm)

I have a bunch of old iMacs (think G3/CRT type all-in-ones) that run pretty ot school removed them fearing data loss. LoL), and a bunch of other bullshi all dvd is a pain in the ass, Not enough Apple priates out there. Easier to

Macs are.. awful. I love my Apple ][gs, but pretty much anything Apple has r itor", and that backup is only accessable on a new Mac.

iCloud is horrible, Google Drive is a possible solution, but you have to kee

Modern Macs are purposly "sealed" so you can't fix them if they break, Genio

Mom has "memories" on her that system dating back almost 20 years. I have no

I have a lot of animosity towards Apple. To this day I just feel they are ov ne Apple ][?), but the company went the wrong way after Jobs got cancer.

...and now I'll just say that Apple Arcade is AMAZING. So there's always hop

Part of Apple's sales strategy is based on "keeping up with the Jones'".
After the Apple 2e came out, that's where Apple began to turn for the worse. I get the impression Woz was happy with producing an open hardware hobbyist ma chine, while Jobs wanted more of a boutique built "system" of hardware combine d with specifically tuned software running on their own custom OS.

I wonder where Apple would be if their board didn't ask Jobs to step down in 1985, and he kept spending large sums of money on research for products that would require longer periods of developement and testing?

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to Nightfox on Mon Sep 30 2019 08:46 am

I have a lot of animosity towards Apple. To this day I just feel they are over priced systems and that Apple has pioneered the concept of "planned obsolessence". I won't deny that their origins were well
meaning (remember when every school had at least one Apple ][?), but the company went the wrong way after Jobs got cancer.

Sounds like you do.

My experience is completely different, and I'm a huge fan.

I switched to Apple about 9 years ago (I think) - had never touched one before then, and adamantly refused to. Was riding the linux (as a desktop) is "free" wave, and open source was the way of the future.

Got sick of the linux wave, as quite frankly things were clunky, I couldnt interact well with my peers (who were on Windows environments), and I spent more time fixing things than using things.

I reluctantly tried a Macbook air (still have it 2011) - and was pleasantly surprised that things "just worked", it never paniced, needed rebooting and infact I was using it for 6 months before I had to google how to purposely switch it off. (I work on my mac 8+ hrs a day.)

Sure, it was a new learning curve, things were a little different - but I immediately went for using it 99% of the time, and managing it to 1% of the time.

Yes, I agree they are over priced, and where I was once very anti the "proprietaryness" of the things, and they were more expensive than everything else - I now see why that is a good thing (things work and their support is excellent, because they know all the hardware and software).

There is a shop 2klm from me, if my mac doesnt work, they just fix it - it told me a year after having it there was a problem with battery - I ignored that for 6 months, and finally went in and they said come back in an hour and we'll fix it - they did, and at no cost. No way I've had that turn around with a non apple device. It did the same thing a year later, which I ignored again for 6 months again, until I finally went in (the computer was way out of warranty by then) - they fixed it immediately and at no cost. Hasnt had battery problems since, and that was 5+ years ago(?).

I've had a similar experience with one of my iPhones.

I really want to get the new shiny iMacs - but my old ones (iMac and Macbook) - just keep working well and I cant really justify spending the dollars when the old ones work well for what I need them for. (And I'm still on them 8+hrs every day.)
...δεσ*

... Those who think they know it all, often upset those of us who do.

---
■ Synchronet ■ Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!

Re: PCs, General
By: Moondog to Android8675 on Mon Sep 30 2019 12:59 pm

Part of Apple's sales strategy is based on "keeping up with the Jones'". After the Apple 2e came out, that's where Apple began to turn for the worse. I get the impression Woz was happy with producing an open hardware hobbyist ma chine, while Jobs wanted more of a boutique built "system" of hardware combine d with specifically tuned software running on their own custom OS.

Steve Jobs had an idea of an easy-to-use home computer, which I think was a good idea.. Hobbyist computers & things like that are good and fun too (and those still exist), but the market for an easy-to-use home computer was just opening up in the early 80s. IBM, Commodore, and others were there too. The way the IBM PC market ended up, I think was the best of both worlds - You could build your own PC or buy one pre-made, and pre-made operating systems such as DOS and Windows (and others) were available.

I wonder where Apple would be if their board didn't ask Jobs to step down in 1985, and he kept spending large sums of money on research for products that would require longer periods of developement and testing?

It seemed like Apple kept going in the same basic direction after Steve Jobs left. Apple kept producing their Mac computers, and they also made some other things. I've heard about their "Newton", which I think was basically a little tablet device they made in the late 80s or early 90s, which wasn't successful at the time. I remember Apple almost disappearing in the mid 90s though, and I heard Microsoft invested a bunch of money in Apple to help keep them afloat. Then Steve Jobs came back and Apple became the big company it is today.

I also wonder what may have happened if Steve Jobs didn't go back to Apple and continued with NeXT.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Alterego to Android8675 on Tue Oct 01 2019 07:42 am

Yes, I agree they are over priced, and where I was once very anti the "proprietaryness" of the things, and they were more expensive than everything else - I now see why that is a good thing (things work and their support is excellent, because they know all the hardware and software).

One time I bought a Mac Mini at my local Apple store. I wanted to add more RAM to it and was a little surprised to find that adding RAM at the store was more expensive than adding RAM when you order one online direct from Apple.. But whatever, I went ahead and bought mine at the Apple store with more RAM at the additional cost. I took it home and found it only had half the extra RAM I wanted, so I had to drive back and ask for the rest (which I think I was still charged additional for). Then when I got back home, I found they neglected to include the power cable in the box, so I had to drive back yet a 3rd time for that - and I got a different person helping me that time, so I think they gave me the first power cable they could find rather than my original power cable.. It was a frustrating experience with the Apple Store that day.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Alterego on Mon Sep 30 2019 05:18 pm


I mean i had an apple IIe 128 way back in the day.
It was OK.

I refused to have any apple products until earlier this year when i bought 2 older refurbed ones. A iMac and a MacBook.

Familiar with linux, i immediately realized why "it just works"- because most average apple users don't do anything. they use what they have, or what can be found in the store.

they don't create their own apps, or install stuff outside the store because they don't "trust" things that don't come directly from apple.

I also immediately found that to me, its just as buggy as windows.

My MacBook came with Yosemite.
I tried to upgrade to Sierra.
It said based on my hardware I could not.
For kicks i tried it again.
It upgraded.

My iMac had a similar issue, and i started noticing that certain things have to be done twice, or don't happen the same way each time. Very inconsistent.

I also noticed many upgrades required reboots.
What?
I thought that was a NO NO and a hallmark of the failure of Microsoft!!!

All in All, once i got them configured and set up the way I wanted, they are running well and I will admit these two machines with their less-than-impressive hardware stats actually perform very well with only 6 and 8gb ram respectively.

My kids can't play minecraft on their laptops.
Minecraft plays flawlessly at 120+ fps on these old ass apples.

Other than that, can't stand em.



Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

---
■ Synchronet ■ +-=[ The Zombie Zone BBS * hcow.dynu.net:61912 ]=-+

Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Nightfox on Tue Oct 01 2019 10:19 am

they don't create their own apps, or install stuff outside the store because they don't "trust" things that don't come directly from apple.

Is that the mindset Mac users have these days? It always used to be that you could download Mac apps from pretty much anywhere - and as far as I know, you still can. I used to have a Mac Mini at home, and then a MacBook, but I've used Macs more recently at work sometimes and generally haven't had many problems with them.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to Nightfox on Mon Sep 30 2019 08:46 am

Macs are.. awful. I love my Apple ][gs, but pretty much anything Apple has released since is just a pain in the ass. My mom's mac book is coming up on 5 years and I can't even figure out how to copy files off her hard drive without using "time flux capacitor", and that backup is only accessable on a new Mac.

iCloud is horrible, Google Drive is a possible solution, but you have to keep a 1tb account because google drive backs up nierly the entire computer.

Modern Macs are purposly "sealed" so you can't fix them if they break, Genious Bar are a bunch of scam artists.

Mom has "memories" on her that system dating back almost 20 years. I have no idea how she managed to get files from her mid-90s PowerMac onto her laptop, most of them won't run because they are PowerPC only.

I have a lot of animosity towards Apple. To this day I just feel they are over priced systems and that Apple has pioneered the concept of "planned obsolessence". I won't deny that their origins were well meaning (remember when every school had at least one Apple ][?), but the company went the wrong way after Jobs got cancer.

Just curious as to what your alternative is to Apple? Windows? Linux? I'm a huge Apple fan, but I'll admit that they seem to be going downhill lately. As for the planned obsolessence, isn't that just about every new technology lately, whether its an iPhone, Andriod phone, Dell laptop, Apple laptop, etc?

Though whats funny is that I am still using my 2006 Black Macbook. :D I upgraded the original hard drive with an SSD, and the memory to 6GB and it actually runs surprisingly well! I am using it as a server to run MajorBBS.

The Dawn of Demise BBS (tdod.org)

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Dawn of Demise (tdod.org:5000)

Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Nightfox on Tue Oct 01 2019 10:19 am

I also noticed many upgrades required reboots.
What?
I thought that was a NO NO and a hallmark of the failure of Microsoft!!!

All in All, once i got them configured and set up the way I wanted, they are running well and I will admit these two machines with their less-than-impressive hardware stats actually perform very well with only 6 a 8gb ram respectively.

My kids can't play minecraft on their laptops.
Minecraft plays flawlessly at 120+ fps on these old ass apples.

Other than that, can't stand em.

Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

To be fair to MS, they have gone a long way towards relaiability from XP on
up.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: PCs, General
By: Minex to Android8675 on Tue Oct 01 2019 11:23 am

lately. As for the planned obsolessence, isn't that just about every new technology lately, whether its an iPhone, Andriod phone, Dell laptop, Apple laptop, etc?

A few months ago, I heard a story in the news that Apple had a feature in their iOS that was purposefully slowing down older iPhones to conserve battery life. Once the story broke in the news, I heard Apple apologized for that and then reduced the price of out-of-warranty battery replacements for older iPhones. I seem to remember also hearing they planned to update iOS so it wouldn't slow down older iPhones.

I agree planned obsolescense is there for many other products too though.

One thing I don't like about Apple is how restrictive they seem to be, at least for their iOS devices. The only official place you can get apps for those is the Apple App Store (you can't easily download and install apps from anywhere like you can with a PC or even a Mac). And Apple seems to be steering Mac users to the App Store now for Mac software..

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Moondog to Zombie Mambo on Tue Oct 01 2019 01:36 pm

To be fair to MS, they have gone a long way towards relaiability from XP on up.

I think Windows 2000 (before XP) was pretty good too. Windows 2000 was the one that finally merged the Windows 9x and NT branches - Windows 2000 was basically NT-based, but it allowed newer versions of DirectX to be installed, which was good for games, etc.. Though, they still had Windows ME (9x-based) for consumer PCs, and I think Windows XP is when they "officially" combined the 9x and NT series for both consumers and business.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Zombie Mambo on Tue Oct 01 2019 09:57 am

they don't create their own apps, or install stuff outside the store because they don't "trust" things that don't come directly from apple.

Is that the mindset Mac users have these days? It always used to be that you could download Mac apps from pretty much anywhere - and as far as I know, you still can. I used to have a Mac Mini at home, and
then a MacBook, but I've used Macs more recently at work sometimes and generally haven't had many problems with them.

I'm a MAC user, and I dont get stuff soley from the mac store.

I know many other users who do not as well...
...δεσ*

... A self-starting oscillator won't.

---
■ Synchronet ■ Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!

On 10-01-19 07:42, Alterego wrote to Android8675 <=-

My experience is completely different, and I'm a huge fan.

I've owned one MacBook Pro and a few iPhones and iPads. I love the design of Apple devices and its OS. For the most part, they "just work", though to fully fit in my environment, I did have to learn a little tinkering under the hood.

Where the Mac really shone was some of the included software, especially iMovie, which was by far the easiest video editing software I've ever used. The Mac was also extremely stable.

Sadly, the MacBook Pro died after 3 years, and I wasn't able to get it fixed (issue with finding parts). :( Would I have another Mac? Sure, if I can afford it (the cost is the killer). They are expensive, but good. I will always maintain a heterogenous environment here. Currently, I am running Windows, Linux, iOS and Android here. A Mac would fit in well. :)

Yes, proprietary can sometimes be a pain, but there's a place for that too.


... Birth: The first and direst of all disasters.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.51
■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

On 10-01-19 10:19, Zombie Mambo wrote to Nightfox <=-

they don't create their own apps, or install stuff outside the store because they don't "trust" things that don't come directly from apple.

I installed quite a bit, and had MacPorts running on mine. Some tweaks were harder than others.

All in All, once i got them configured and set up the way I wanted,
they are running well and I will admit these two machines with their less-than-impressive hardware stats actually perform very well with
only 6 and 8gb ram respectively.

Yes, to get a Mac setup right can take a bit of work, but once setup it just runs. I remember beating mine into submission (software wise) at first, but then once I had it the way I wanted it, the Mac was an awesome machine.


... Because that's what the holidays are all about: SUFFERING.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.51
■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

On 10-01-19 13:36, Moondog wrote to Zombie Mambo <=-

To be fair to MS, they have gone a long way towards relaiability from
XP on up.

I found XP had a few annoying instability quirks, but I've had excellent stability from Vista (if you threw enough hardware at it), 7 and 10.


... Warranty: If it breaks, both halves are yours.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.51
■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

On 10-01-19 15:35, Nightfox wrote to Minex <=-

One thing I don't like about Apple is how restrictive they seem to be,
at least for their iOS devices. The only official place you can get
apps for those is the Apple App Store (you can't easily download and install apps from anywhere like you can with a PC or even a Mac). And Apple seems to be steering Mac users to the App Store now for Mac software..

That's a double edged sword. If you want to really tinker with your device, then the closed nature of iOS is going to get in the way, but if you're someone who wants a smartphone with apps that "just works", and wants some degree of confidence that any apps you install are not going to contain malware, then Apple's closed ecosystem does work in your favour. Horses for courses, which is the reason I have both iOS and Android devices. They offer me different things.


... Don't argue with he who buys ink by the gallon.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.51
■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Wed Oct 02 2019 12:07 pm

That's a double edged sword. If you want to really tinker with your device, then the closed nature of iOS is going to get in the way, but if you're someone who wants a smartphone with apps that "just works", and wants some degree of confidence that any apps you install are not going to contain malware, then Apple's closed ecosystem does work in your favour. Horses for courses, which is the reason I have both iOS and Android devices. They offer me different things.

Yeah, I can see why Apple makes their iOS devices operate the way they do.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Moondog on Tue Oct 01 2019 03:37 pm

Re: PCs, General
By: Moondog to Zombie Mambo on Tue Oct 01 2019 01:36 pm

To be fair to MS, they have gone a long way towards relaiability from X on up.

I think Windows 2000 (before XP) was pretty good too. Windows 2000 was the etc.. Though, they still had Windows ME (9x-based) for consumer PCs, and I

Nightfox

Win2k was awesome. It ran, and when things didn't run right, it got over it, and didn't need a theraputic reboot all the time.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Wed Oct 02 2019 12:07 pm

That's a double edged sword. If you want to really tinker with your device, then the closed nature of iOS is going to get in the way, but if you're some who wants a smartphone with apps that "just works", and wants some degree of confidence that any apps you install are not going to contain malware, then Apple's closed ecosystem does work in your favour. Horses for courses, whic is the reason I have both iOS and Android devices. They offer me different things.

... Don't argue with he who buys ink by the gallon.

Apple's closed ecosystem was also the draw for desktop and laptop users years ago. If you bought a Dell or HP, it was packed with third party apps and bloatware to do the same things a Mac did right out of the box. for the "expert" pc user, they'd clean all the bloatware off and install the programs they trust. Of course, there's research behind that trust, whereas the novice user doesn't know where to go or where to read about what is good or not.
The creators of most linux distros understand this, and install the core apps they think a base user will need.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Moondog to Vk3jed on Wed Oct 02 2019 11:00 am

Apple's closed ecosystem was also the draw for desktop and laptop users years ago. If you bought a Dell or HP, it was packed with third party apps and bloatware to do the same things a Mac did right out of the box. for

That doesn't really have anything to do with a closed software ecosystem. You can download Mac sotware from anywhere, but Apple decided not to load their Macs up with a bunch of third-party trialware. You can build your own Windows-based PC and only install the software you want, too.

Whenever I've bought a pre-built computer (typically a laptop), one of the first things I do is uninstall any crap third-party trialware & stuff I wouldn't use.

what is good or not. The creators of most linux distros understand this, and install the core apps they think a base user will need.

Well in the case of Windows, it's not Microsoft who installs all that stuff, it's the PC vendor who installs that extra stuff. If you install a fresh copy of Windows, it's only going to include the software included with Windows.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Minex on Tue Oct 01 2019 03:35 pm

lately. As for the planned obsolessence, isn't that just about every new technology lately, whether its an iPhone, Andriod phone, Dell laptop, Apple laptop, etc?

A few months ago, I heard a story in the news that Apple had a feature in their iOS that was purposefully slowing down older iPhones to conserve battery life. Once the story broke in the news, I heard Apple apologized for that and then reduced the price of out-of-warranty battery replacements for older iPhones. I seem to remember also hearing they planned to update iOS so it wouldn't slow down older iPhones.

Yeah, so I have an iPhone 6s, the battery on it drains HELLa fast. If I'm actively using the thing the battery only lasts about an hour. When I first got the thing the battery was decent, then Apple had that scandal and as part of the "Agreement" they offered any 6s users a battery swap for $29 vs. the normal $79.

I took advantage of that deal on the last day, my battery was getting slightly shorter charges and the sluggish cpu was a bit noticable.

New battery really didn't help that much leading me to believe it's a combination of hardware and software, when iOS gets updated they update it for the newest phones which are obivously faster than the older ones, and instead of optimizing the OS for slower phones they just force everyone to run with all features on.

So my phone is slower, doesn't stay charged, and that's partially due to aging hardware, but also because the OS has added stuff that the phone hasn't run before.

I agree planned obsolescense is there for many other products too though.

One thing I don't like about Apple is how restrictive they seem to be, at least for their iOS devices. The only official place you can get apps for those is the Apple App Store (you can't easily download and install apps from anywhere like you can with a PC or even a Mac). And Apple seems to be steering Mac users to the App Store now for Mac software..

I don't like Android for that reason, having multiple stores, some that are less critical of quality make for a ton of bloatware apps. I like that Apple app store if you search for something usually the first 3 apps are just what you're looking for. Sometimes Android stuff gets burried below a ton of crap.

I've never had an issue with the appstore on apple.

Win10 steers users to the store now as well. It's just the thing that works and makes a ton of money. For the most part you can still use non-store apps, but a lot of apps are on the store because it gets the app in front of more users.


--
Android8675@ShodansCore

---
■ Synchronet ■ Shodan's Core @ ShodansCore.com

Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to Nightfox on Wed Oct 02 2019 01:53 pm

I don't like Android for that reason, having multiple stores, some that are less critical of quality make for a ton of bloatware apps. I like that

I know Google's "Play Store" is the default store on Android devices, and I actually thought that was the only official store for Android apps. What other Android app stores are there? I've seen web sites where you can download an Android app .apk file onto your Android device where you can then install it manually, but I don't recall seeing any other Android store apps available.

Apple app store if you search for something usually the first 3 apps are just what you're looking for. Sometimes Android stuff gets burried below a

The Android Play Store seems the same way to me.

just what you're looking for. Sometimes Android stuff gets burried below a ton of crap.

I'm not really sure what you mean.. Are you saying it shows you things that don't match your search words?

Win10 steers users to the store now as well. It's just the thing that works and makes a ton of money. For the most part you can still use non-store apps, but a lot of apps are on the store because it gets the app

I've been using Windows 10 for several years now, and very few times have I seen any links or anything that went to the Windows app store. I seem to remember there was a Windows desktop app that now has a new version as a Windows modern app from the Windows store, but otherwise, I've been using regular desktop apps on Windows and installing them from various sources as I always have before.

Nightfox

On 10-01-19 22:21, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Yeah, I can see why Apple makes their iOS devices operate the way they
do.

Yes, it's a different system with a different focus. Other than the usual human issues about content on a centrally controlled platform, it's just a different way of doing things - good for some, not for others.


... Kitty litter: created by exploding catnip.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.51
■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

On 10-02-19 11:00, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Apple's closed ecosystem was also the draw for desktop and laptop users years ago. If you bought a Dell or HP, it was packed with third party apps and bloatware to do the same things a Mac did right out of the

There's a different between "preloaded" and "closed" systems. You're describing preloading on PCs, but it's still an open ecosystem. No one's stopping you from going online and downloading and installing any app you want (that will run on Windows). On iOS/iPadOS, you're restricted to what' on offer from the App Store (for normaal users) and the OS also won't let you do a lot of low level things with the device, unlike Windows, where you can install device drivers from third party sources.

box. for the "expert" pc user, they'd clean all the bloatware off and install the programs they trust. Of course, there's research behind
that trust, whereas the novice user doesn't know where to go or where
to read about what is good or not. The creators of most linux distros understand this, and install the core apps they think a base user will need.

Again, preloading, not closed. Different thing. :)


... If the good die young, I'll live forever!
--- MultiMail/Win v0.51
■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Zombie Mambo on Tue Oct 01 2019 09:57 am

Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Nightfox on Tue Oct 01 2019 10:19 am

they don't create their own apps, or install stuff outside the store because they don't "trust" things that don't come directly from apple.

Is that the mindset Mac users have these days? It always used to be that yo
at work sometimes and generally haven't had many problems with them.

Nightfox

That's the mindset of all the ones I know personally anyway.
It's funny how little they understand things.
I have one friend who won't visit a website with a nonstandard port because his browser tells him it may not be safe.

Even tho the site is on his best-friend's pc.

His rationale? My mac told me it isn't safe.

Sure you can install programs from outside the store, but unless its from a website selling a product, my mac using friends/family won't install it because they don't "trust" it.

I tell them thats why "it just works" because they aren't using it for anything.
They browse, send emails, and use itunes.

wow.

impressive.

And then they feel they have to right to judge linux, windows, etc.

anyways that's just what i see.
Obviously there are people that are not like that that use macs.

I just never met one.


Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

---
■ Synchronet ■ +-=[ The Zombie Zone BBS * hcow.dynu.net:61912 ]=-+

Re: PCs, General
By: Moondog to Zombie Mambo on Tue Oct 01 2019 01:36 pm

To be fair to MS, they have gone a long way towards relaiability from XP on up.

For sure. I prefer windows. I just feel like no matter what i'm asked to do, i can do it quickly on a windows pc.

On any other platform, it's a pain in the ass to do shit.

It is not that it can't be done.
It is not that a power user can do it quickly.
It just doesn't feel right, reliable, easy, etc.

For example... Try writing an application on a mac.
Takes forver to get a friggin dev environment going. Especially if you want something you don't have to pay for.

I can write a simple hangman game for example on my PC in various languages, package it and deploy it.

I can even get there on linux but it takes a little longer.

Mac?

"your os doesn't support this version of xcode" or "you must be an apple developer to package/deploy on another machine". etc. blah blah etc.

MS does a WAY better job of making it easy to create application for MS and now adays, support for other platforms.

And I am talking about novice programming too.

Hard core dev guys are going to use modern frameworks and containers and sh*t to build their apps. Pulling stuff down to build their "dev" machine.

I haven't tried but I am guessing even trying to use modern cross-platform supported dev tools is harder on a mac.

And it shouldn't be.


Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

---
■ Synchronet ■ +-=[ The Zombie Zone BBS * hcow.dynu.net:61912 ]=-+

Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Wed Oct 02 2019 12:03 pm

On 10-01-19 13:36, Moondog wrote to Zombie Mambo <=-

To be fair to MS, they have gone a long way towards relaiability from XP on up.

I found XP had a few annoying instability quirks, but I've had excellent stability from Vista (if you threw enough hardware at it), 7 and 10.

... Warranty: If it breaks, both halves are yours.

Intersting.

2000 - Decent
2003 Server - Decent
XP - What a long run this OS had and how many people it brought to the pc market.
7/8/10 - All solid. A bit bloated perhaps but solid.


Vista? I thought vista wasone of the worst versions of windows ever created.
I absolutely hated it. Maybe once you got it configured the way you wanted it would behave better, but I didn't like it. I stayed with XP until 7.

I give honorable mentions to server 2008 and 2012 as well.
Solid.


Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

---
■ Synchronet ■ +-=[ The Zombie Zone BBS * hcow.dynu.net:61912 ]=-+

Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to Nightfox on Wed Oct 02 2019 01:53 pm

Win10 steers...

Really? I thought the store was pretty much dead after the metro ui fiasco in 8.1

It's there, but sh*t why anyone would go to the store for anything beats me.

Unless the only way to get a particular app is indeed through the store. Otherwise, f the store.


Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

---
■ Synchronet ■ +-=[ The Zombie Zone BBS * hcow.dynu.net:61912 ]=-+

Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Nightfox on Thu Oct 03 2019 01:40 pm

Sure you can install programs from outside the store, but unless its from a website selling a product, my mac using friends/family won't install it because they don't "trust" it.

That's kinda funny, because I thought Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs at Apple started out by visiting hobbyist computer clubs back in the day - The kinds of people who liked to tinker and build computer kits.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Moondog on Thu Oct 03 2019 01:47 pm

For example... Try writing an application on a mac.
Takes forver to get a friggin dev environment going. Especially if you want something you don't have to pay for.

Eh? I've done some development on a Mac before, and it didn't seem like too much of a pain. If you want to develop Mac and/or iOS apps, Apple's XCode can be freely downloaded installed from Apple (now I think it's available in their Mac OS app store). I don't think you had to pay for XCode. Also, since Mac OS X is based on a BSD variant, gcc/c++ are available via the command line. And you can download other languages and IDEs for Mac as easily as with other platforms. You can download and install Python for Mac, for instance. IDEs are available to help with other languages such as Python, C++, etc. Microsoft even has a Visual Studio for Mac available these days.

Nightfox

Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Vk3jed on Thu Oct 03 2019 01:50 pm

Vista? I thought vista wasone of the worst versions of windows ever created. I absolutely hated it. Maybe once you got it configured the way you wanted it would behave better, but I didn't like it. I stayed with XP until 7.

I think part of the problem was that most of the systems I saw running Vista were cheap, underpowered systems. Celerons, 2-4 GB of RAM, slow spinning drives...

By the time 7 rolled around, Core 2 Duos were common, as was 8 GB of RAM, and Hybrid SATA drives made a huge difference.

---
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Re: Re: PCs, General
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Zombie Mambo on Fri Oct 04 2019 04:28 pm

Vista? I thought vista wasone of the worst versions of windows ever
created. I absolutely hated it. Maybe once you got it configured the
way you wanted it would behave better, but I didn't like it. I
stayed with XP until 7.

I think part of the problem was that most of the systems I saw running Vista were cheap, underpowered systems. Celerons, 2-4 GB of RAM, slow spinning drives...

By the time 7 rolled around, Core 2 Duos were common, as was 8 GB of RAM, and Hybrid SATA drives made a huge difference.

I had often heard that Vista was a bit bloated and inefficient, which was one of the main things Microsoft addressed with Windows 7. I thought Windows 7 had lower system requirements than Vista and thus would run better.

Nightfox

On 10-03-19 13:50, Zombie Mambo wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Intersting.

2000 - Decent

OK, still some stability issues and quirks.

2003 Server - Decent

Yep, a solid version.

XP - What a long run this OS had and how many people it brought to the
pc market.

XP was fairly good, though I seemed to find its instabilities. :D

7/8/10 - All solid. A bit bloated perhaps but solid.

7 and 10 - solid, 8 I really haven't used enough to form an opinion.

Vista? I thought vista wasone of the worst versions of windows ever created. I absolutely hated it. Maybe once you got it configured the
way you wanted it would behave better, but I didn't like it. I stayed
with XP until 7.

I have a PC with Vista and it was rock solid. Vista was resource hungry, but I had a fresh 64 bit installation, and had no issues. Only ever had one or 2 BSODs that weren't obviously "self induced" (using unsigned drivers and having to tweak the registry) or hardware related on Vista in 10 years, a figure comparable to Windows 7.

I give honorable mentions to server 2008 and 2012 as well.
Solid.

I haven't used these, but the way Server was trending, I'm not surprised they get a good rap.


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Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Zombie Mambo on Fri Oct 04 2019 09:43 am

Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Nightfox on Thu Oct 03 2019 01:40 pm

Sure you can install programs from outside the store, but unless its fr a website selling a product, my mac using friends/family won't install because they don't "trust" it.

That's kinda funny, because I thought Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs at Apple

Nightfox

The hobbists also embraced an "information must be free" mind set, and would g ladly reverse engineer and build an item themself than pay money if they
could. It's a great environment for innovation, but not for profit. At one computer club meeting Paul Allen and Bill Gates asked how many members were using their version of MS BASIC on the Altair 8080, and more users raised
their than hands than the number of copies were legally sold. Hard to make a living off people assume you put thousand of hours into a product just because
you like to.

---
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Vk3jed wrote to Moondog <=-

There's a different between "preloaded" and "closed" systems. You're describing preloading on PCs, but it's still an open ecosystem. No
one's stopping you from going online and downloading and installing any app you want (that will run on Windows). On iOS/iPadOS, you're
restricted to what' on offer from the App Store (for normaal users) and the OS also won't let you do a lot of low level things with the device, unlike Windows, where you can install device drivers from third party sources.

Time to call out another behavior by manufacturers - burning crapware into firmware of Android phones. AT&T and Verizon are notorious for getting paid
by vendors for burning in their apps into the OS image, so you can't remove them.

I had an AT&T Samsung SIII that was loaded. I ended up finding third-party
OS builds that only loaded the default Android image, and it ran like a
dream for years past it's reasonable useful date.


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Re: PCs, General
By: Moondog to Nightfox on Fri Oct 04 2019 09:34 pm

The hobbists also embraced an "information must be free" mind set, and would g ladly reverse engineer and build an item themself than pay money if they could. It's a great environment for innovation, but not for profit. At one computer club meeting Paul Allen and Bill Gates asked how many members were using their version of MS BASIC on the Altair 8080, and more users raised their than hands than the number of copies were legally sold. Hard to make a living off people assume you put thousand of hours into a product just because
you like to.

Yeah, I heard about an "open letter to hobbyists" that Bill Gates wrote calling for an end to software piracy.

Nightfox

Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Vk3jed on Thu Oct 03 2019 01:50 pm

Vista? I thought vista wasone of the worst versions of windows ever created. I absolutely hated it. Maybe once you got it configured the way you wanted it would behave better, but I didn't like it. I stayed with XP until 7.

Vista was ok at first but then it get's really bloated and you have to reinstall it.
Windows 8.0 aka metro was the worst for me but then they fixed it with 8.1 upgrade.
I am still using 8.1 on my laptop, and windows 7 on my main PC.

---
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On 10-04-19 06:23, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Time to call out another behavior by manufacturers - burning crapware
into firmware of Android phones. AT&T and Verizon are notorious for getting paid by vendors for burning in their apps into the OS image, so you can't remove them.

Yeah, that's highly annoying as well.

I had an AT&T Samsung SIII that was loaded. I ended up finding
third-party OS builds that only loaded the default Android image, and
it ran like a dream for years past it's reasonable useful date.

Yes, stock Android is the best.


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On 10-04-19 17:15, Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I think part of the problem was that most of the systems I saw running Vista were cheap, underpowered systems. Celerons, 2-4 GB of RAM, slow spinning drives...

Vista did use a lot of resources. 2GB was a common amount of RAM. I opted for 4GB, and a quad core Q6600 processor. Vista ran well on that hardware.

I had often heard that Vista was a bit bloated and inefficient, which
was one of the main things Microsoft addressed with Windows 7. I
thought Windows 7 had lower system requirements than Vista and thus
would run better.

I believe 7 is more efficient on resources. That was one thing Microsoft publicly stated they'd address, IIRC.


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Re: Re: PCs, General
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Zombie Mambo on Fri Oct 04 2019 04:28 pm

Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Vk3jed on Thu Oct 03 2019 01:50 pm

Vista? I thought vista wasone of the worst versions of windows ever created. I absolutely hated it. Maybe once you got it configured the way you wanted it would behave better, but I didn't like it. I stayed with X until 7.

I think part of the problem was that most of the systems I saw running Vista

By the time 7 rolled around, Core 2 Duos were common, as was 8 GB of RAM, an

The "Vista Ready" campaign tanked because of lower resource machines being
sold with all the bells and whistles optimized. I inherited a hand me down 2009 era pc with reasonable specs that was running Vista, and it ran fine. I still use it as my main portable because it does what I need it to do. Main difference is I run Ubuntu on it.

---
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Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Oct 04 2019 05:15 pm

Re: Re: PCs, General
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Zombie Mambo on Fri Oct 04 2019 04:28 pm

Vista? I thought vista wasone of the worst versions of windows ever
created. I absolutely hated it. Maybe once you got it configured the
way you wanted it would behave better, but I didn't like it. I
stayed with XP until 7.

I think part of the problem was that most of the systems I saw running Vista were cheap, underpowered systems. Celerons, 2-4 GB of RAM, slow spinning drives...

By the time 7 rolled around, Core 2 Duos were common, as was 8 GB of RA and Hybrid SATA drives made a huge difference.

I had often heard that Vista was a bit bloated and inefficient, which was on

Nightfox

It wan't a matter of being bloated, but more of a tuning issue. Back around 2007 I bought some cheap laptops sold through Walmart's Secret Saturday
sales, and they were no frills lower end CPU systems with 2-3gb of ram. They both shipped with Vista, however it had all the eye candy turned on with HP's bloatware. One I moved upgraded to 7 right away, and the other I installed Ubuntu.

---
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Vk3jed wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Yes, stock Android is the best.

True dat. I bought a Motorola G6 Forge (I think it's really a Play) from my MVNO last year. it was $99, and Moto bundles as close to stock Android as
I've seen. Nice phone.


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Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Vk3jed on Thu Oct 03 2019 01:50 pm

Vista? I thought vista wasone of the worst versions of windows ever created I absolutely hated it. Maybe once you got it configured the way you wanted i would behave better, but I didn't like it. I stayed with XP until 7.

windows ME was probably the worst version of windows created.

vista wasnt that bad. you just need to tweak a few things.
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Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Android8675 on Thu Oct 03 2019 01:54 pm

Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to Nightfox on Wed Oct 02 2019 01:53 pm

Win10 steers...

Really? I thought the store was pretty much dead after the metro ui fiasco i 8.1

It's there, but sh*t why anyone would go to the store for anything beats me.

Unless the only way to get a particular app is indeed through the store. Otherwise, f the store.

i use the windows store sometimes. makes things quick and easy.
i dont need to use it, but i can.
---
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Re: Re: PCs, General
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Zombie Mambo on Fri Oct 04 2019 04:28 pm

created. I absolutely hated it. Maybe once you got it configured the way you wanted it would behave better, but I didn't like it. I stayed with X until 7.

I think part of the problem was that most of the systems I saw running Vista were cheap, underpowered systems. Celerons, 2-4 GB of RAM, slow spinning drives...

i think you have your ram amount set too high. those computers didnt really have that much memory.

vista would run fine on 4gigs of ram. not sure about less.

i've ran win7 on 1ghz laptops with 1 gigs of ram and they worked fine so vista is probably comparable.

i think xp people just liked xp and switching to vista was a big change for them.
---
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Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Vk3jed to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Oct 05 2019 07:30 pm

Yes, stock Android is the best.

I've been using Samsung Android phones for a long time, and I've tended to use the Samsung web browser - probably because that was the default web browser on them. At first I didn't even realise it was Samsung's browser..

One thing that has bugged me about Android though (or maybe Samsung), is that they removed a couple useful featurse I used to use: Customized text notification tones that you could set per contact, and the "re-send" texting feature. If you tried to send a text to someone and it failed, you could long-tap it and select "re-send", but they removed that option out a few years ago. Now, I have to copy & paste the text and send it again if it fails. My cell signal is bad at work, so I have to do that fairly often.

I also used to set a customized text notification sound for some contacts, and it bugs me that they removed that too..

Nightfox

Re: Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Zombie Mambo on Sat Oct 05 2019 07:49 pm

windows ME was probably the worst version of windows created.

I used ME for a while, and it ran fairly stable with me. I didn't really have any issues with it.

Nightfox

On 10-05-19 07:06, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-

True dat. I bought a Motorola G6 Forge (I think it's really a Play)
from my MVNO last year. it was $99, and Moto bundles as close to stock Android as I've seen. Nice phone.

yEAH SOUNDS GOOD. :)


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On 10-05-19 20:35, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

I've been using Samsung Android phones for a long time, and I've tended
to use the Samsung web browser - probably because that was the default
web browser on them. At first I didn't even realise it was Samsung's browser..

Yeah, I think I've seen that on a friend's Samsung.

One thing that has bugged me about Android though (or maybe Samsung),
is that they removed a couple useful featurse I used to use: Customized text notification tones that you could set per contact, and the
"re-send" texting feature. If you tried to send a text to someone and
it failed, you could long-tap it and select "re-send", but they removed that option out a few years ago. Now, I have to copy & paste the text
and send it again if it fails. My cell signal is bad at work, so I
have to do that fairly often.

I haven't had cause t use either of those functions. I use a third party text app anyway, so it's different for me. :)

I also used to set a customized text notification sound for some
contacts, and it bugs me that they removed that too..

That would be handy. I find it annoying that a lot of Android apps don't allow customised notification tones, but there is a workaround that does the trick.
)


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On 10-05-19 19:49, MRO wrote to Zombie Mambo <=-

windows ME was probably the worst version of windows created.

It was known as "Windows Must Erase". :D

vista wasnt that bad. you just need to tweak a few things.

Yep, I had a good experience with Vista.


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On 10-05-19 19:52, MRO wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

vista would run fine on 4gigs of ram. not sure about less.

My Vista machine had 4GB and it was fine.


... What do you get when you cross a Sysop with*^*(#%$&*@#%NO CARRIER
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Re: Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Zombie Mambo on Sat Oct 05 2019 07:49 pm

Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Vk3jed on Thu Oct 03 2019 01:50 pm

Vista? I thought vista wasone of the worst versions of windows ever crea I absolutely hated it. Maybe once you got it configured the way you wante would behave better, but I didn't like it. I stayed with XP until 7.

windows ME was probably the worst version of windows created.

vista wasnt that bad. you just need to tweak a few things.

Millenium Edition sucked hard. It was essentially a service pack for Win98 that had too much crap in it, and they pawned it off as an OS "upgrade." Whil e Win2k was what I consider a hit in the business market, I feel it took a
hit because consumers mistook it for ME.

---
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Moondog wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

The "Vista Ready" campaign tanked because of lower resource machines
being sold with all the bells and whistles optimized.

That's true - turn down UAC to a reasonable level and turn off most of the animations and Vista would run comparably to XP.


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Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Yes, stock Android is the best.

I've been using Samsung Android phones for a long time, and I've tended
to use the Samsung web browser - probably because that was the default
web browser on them. At first I didn't even realise it was Samsung's browser..

I use the Samsung browser as my default browser on my Motorola phone. It's downloadable from the Play Store.

Chrome has this feature where it doesn't work on some of the coffee-shop
wifi portals, where there's no SSID and web traffic is redirected to a
captive portal for you to accept terms of service, or enter a password.

Chrome will sometimes try to hit a site on the internet and give up when it doesn't respond. Samsung internet worked fine.

One thing that has bugged me about Android though (or maybe Samsung),
is that they removed a couple useful featurse I used to use: Customized text notification tones that you could set per contact, and the
"re-send" texting feature. If you tried to send a text to someone and
it failed, you could long-tap it and select "re-send", but they removed that option out a few years ago. Now, I have to copy & paste the text
and send it again if it fails. My cell signal is bad at work, so I
have to do that fairly often.

One of the features I missed that they later took out was selective notification on email. You could set up a "preferred sender" list in their client, and create separate notifications for each - or only notify on preferred senders. That was something Blackberry had in spades - you could even selectively download email based on priority, so I wouldn't even have emails on my phone from bulk emailers, mail cc:ed to me, etc.


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Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Vk3jed to MRO on Sun Oct 06 2019 04:47 pm

On 10-05-19 19:49, MRO wrote to Zombie Mambo <=-

windows ME was probably the worst version of windows created.

It was known as "Windows Must Erase". :D

windows 95 also had an issue where if you overwrote a file with the same name, it became 0 bytes.
---
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On 10-06-19 14:39, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

@VIA: VERT/BBSESINF
Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Vk3jed to MRO on Sun Oct 06 2019 04:47 pm

On 10-05-19 19:49, MRO wrote to Zombie Mambo <=-

windows ME was probably the worst version of windows created.

It was known as "Windows Must Erase". :D

windows 95 also had an issue where if you overwrote a file with the
same name, it became 0 bytes.

I don't remember that one, but I remember Windows 95 had all sorts of issues, especially with Plug and Play (Plug and Pray as we called it ;) ).


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On 10-06-19 11:20, Moondog wrote to MRO <=-

Millenium Edition sucked hard. It was essentially a service pack for Win98 that had too much crap in it, and they pawned it off as an OS "upgrade." Whil e Win2k was what I consider a hit in the business
market, I feel it took a hit because consumers mistook it for ME.

Win2k was a huge step up from NT4, and I preferred it to the Windows 95/98/ME line, but things improved dramatically again when XP came along.


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Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Android8675 on Wed Oct 02 2019 03:18 pm

just what you're looking for. Sometimes Android stuff gets burried below a ton of crap.

I'm not really sure what you mean.. Are you saying it shows you things that don't match your search words?

Uugg, you know forget what I said, I'm too old/tire/sore to talk about one app store vs. another. Got my wife a Moto G7 Power over the weekend and got it up and running in under 10 minutes, so whoo hoo, Go Android.

--
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---
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Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Zombie Mambo on Fri Oct 04 2019 09:43 am

Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Nightfox on Thu Oct 03 2019 01:40 pm

Sure you can install programs from outside the store, but unless its fr a website selling a product, my mac using friends/family won't install because they don't "trust" it.

That's kinda funny, because I thought Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs at Apple

Nightfox

Yeah that is how they came off right?
Garage builders.
You'd think they'd want to harness that experience in their products for others but they didn't. Instead, they went closed-system (and then complained that microsoft was closed system because they.... omg... included a web browser... NOOOOOOOOO!!!!).


Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

---
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Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Zombie Mambo on Fri Oct 04 2019 10:20 am

Eh? I've done some development on a Mac before, and it didn't seem like too

This is all true. But remember I mentioned casual developer.
I agree with what you said and yes xcode is free but if you're running an older version of MacOS or OSX good luck finding xCode in the store with that's compatible. It was difficult for me.

And if I am going to use visual studio, I'll just keep my pc.

My understanding was you couldn't export your apps to another appled device, unless you bought an apple developer license. If that's not true, then maybe I went a bit too far with my complaint.

I will say there were some cool spin off programming suites out there, non defunct I think, like KBasic.. Which was compatible with all version of Visual Basic, and also had mac-specific functionality... Alowing you to take a
n app written in VB, import, modify, export as .dmg or a linux package, or a ms vb app.

That was great for casual programming.

Also there's another app I think its a QuickBasic variant that is 100% compatible with Qbasic 4.5 but has telephone, and ip stack / net protocol support that is Mac/Win compatible.

I'm not much of a modern programmer so stuff like the two things above appeal to me because i can get something created quickly and deployed, without much of a learning curve if any.


Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

---
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Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Denn to Zombie Mambo on Fri Oct 04 2019 11:25 pm

Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Vk3jed on Thu Oct 03 2019 01:50 pm

Vista? I thought vista wasone of the worst versions of windows ever created. I absolutely hated it. Maybe once you got it configured the wa you wanted it would behave better, but I didn't like it. I stayed with until 7.

Vista was ok at first but then it get's really bloated and you have to reinstall it.
Windows 8.0 aka metro was the worst for me but then they fixed it with 8.1 upgrade.
I am still using 8.1 on my laptop, and windows 7 on my main PC.

Bingo. I am the same way. My main pc is 10.
My laptop in my kitchen is 8.1 and I've seen no need to upgrade it.
My garage PC is 10... was 7 until recently.
My 1997 Toshiba Touch Tablet is 2000 and my OG Toughbook is XP.



Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

---
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Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Nightfox on Mon Oct 07 2019 11:06 am

You'd think they'd want to harness that experience in their products for others but they didn't. Instead, they went closed-system (and then complained that microsoft was closed system because they.... omg... included a web browser... NOOOOOOOOO!!!!).

I'm not sure the complaint against Microsoft was that they were a closed system.. The complaint against Microsoft was for anti-competitive practices, and I think it was more than Apple complaining about it (actually I'm not sure Apple was much involved in that). I believe Netscape was one of the big companies against Microsoft at the time, because of the browser issue. By bundling Internet Explorer in Windows, a lot of people ended up just using IE because it was included with Windows, and over time, I think Microsoft used that to their adavantage. They made IE behave diffrently than most browsers, so many web sites ended up being designed so they'd work well in IE but not other web browsers, which basically locked people into using IE. When Firefox came around, many people liked it and I think that was when people started to switch away from IE.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to Nightfox on Mon Oct 07 2019 08:03 am

Uugg, you know forget what I said, I'm too old/tire/sore to talk about one app store vs. another. Got my wife a Moto G7 Power over the weekend and got it up and running in under 10 minutes, so whoo hoo, Go Android.

Let me know what you think of it - I'm thinking of replacing my Cricket-branded Motorola G6 Surge (aka Play) with the G7 Power.

---
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Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Nightfox on Mon Oct 07 2019 11:06 am

Yeah that is how they came off right?
Garage builders.
You'd think they'd want to harness that experience in their products for oth but they didn't. Instead, they went closed-system (and then complained that microsoft was closed system because they.... omg... included a web browser.. NOOOOOOOOO!!!!).

Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

It was pretty much Jobs who turned things closed system. Wozniak worked his way out of the company disagreeing with Jobs. Woz and his Apple II crew
tried to set themselves apart from Job's forward vision.

---
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Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Oct 04 2019 05:15 pm

I had often heard that Vista was a bit bloated and inefficient, which was one of the main things Microsoft addressed with Windows 7. I thought Windows 7 had lower system requirements than Vista and thus would run better.

If you compare a Vista vs. Win7 system today (patched, running normally), Vista is a bit less bloaty. Win7 doesn't feel like much of an upgrade, Vista really did add a ton of security stuff and "bloat" vs. XP, but in the end all the changes really made a difference. (just generalizing here, don't kill me)

I think Win10 really has improved all aspects of the WinOS game to the point where I feel I can install the OS, apply all patches, and feel confident that the average user will be good to go.

I like that the latest installer for Win10 has the latest major update ready to go. Like the current build is 1903, and every 18 months (I think it's 18) they'll make a new installer so anything you build doesn't need much updating.

It's like Linux, but Windows.

--
Android8675@ShodansCore

---
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Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to Nightfox on Mon Oct 07 2019 08:11 am

If you compare a Vista vs. Win7 system today (patched, running normally), Vista is a bit less bloaty. Win7 doesn't feel like much of an upgrade, Vista really did add a ton of security stuff and "bloat" vs. XP, but in the end all the changes really made a difference. (just generalizing here, don't kill me)

hmm.. I thought the official word from Microsoft was that they wanted to make Windows 7 more efficient compared to Vista.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Zombie Mambo on Mon Oct 07 2019 10:10 am

Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Nightfox on Mon Oct 07 2019 11:06 am

You'd think they'd want to harness that experience in their products fo others but they didn't. Instead, they went closed-system (and then complained that microsoft was closed system because they.... omg... included a web browser... NOOOOOOOOO!!!!).

I'm not sure the complaint against Microsoft was that they were a closed sys in that). I believe Netscape was one of the big companies against Microsoft
I think Microsoft used that to their adavantage. They made IE behave diffr ox came around, many people liked it and I think that was when people starte

Nightfox

MS messed with Java so that it wouldn't work right on other browsers.
Firefox is the open source successor to Netscape's legacy. Mozilla was Netscapes' mascot since it put Mosaic out o fthe picture.

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Re: Re: PCs, General
By: Android8675 to Nightfox on Mon Oct 07 2019 08:11 am

I like that the latest installer for Win10 has the latest major update ready

It's like Linux, but Windows.

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Android8675@ShodansCore

As a fan of the LTS versions of Ubuntu, I like the Win 10 functionality upgrades. It keeps the OS feeling fresh.

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Re: PCs, General
By: Minex to Android8675 on Tue Oct 01 2019 11:23 am

Just curious as to what your alternative is to Apple? Windows? Linux? I'm a huge Apple fan, but I'll admit that they seem to be going downhill lately. As for the planned obsolessence, isn't that just about every new technology lately, whether its an iPhone, Andriod phone, Dell laptop, Apple laptop, etc?

Though whats funny is that I am still using my 2006 Black Macbook. :D I upgraded the original hard drive with an SSD, and the memory to 6GB and it actually runs surprisingly well! I am using it as a server to run MajorBBS.

I prefer Windows, though I have a Debian VM that I experiment with. If I ever get moved I'm planning to run a Linux server of some kind for home automation and what have you.

Yes, every tech these days seems to be designed to fail, and heaven forbid your friends see you with old tech (5+ years). Have you seen these refrigerators? Software so advanced they cause the fridge to crash and spoil all your yogurt. (I'm kidding, I have no idea if this is a thing, but every home I've looked to buy this past year, usually has a Samsung fridge that looks like you need a engineering degree to operate. Shudder).

I admit I enjoy the look/feel of a lot of Macs, and I have a bunch of Mac Pros from like G5s to a couple first and second gen Intels, but most of them are not running. Honestly I wish I could sell the aluminum for scrap.

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Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Zombie Mambo on Mon Oct 07 2019 10:10 am

You're right it was really about IE and netscape was the big complainer but Apple complained about MS and their practices too. Maybe they just rode the negative press to their advantage.

But it sure seems like apple is guilty of many of the same practices they complained about.

Sure feels like you have less freedoms with apple products than you do with any others out there.


Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

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Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Nightfox on Fri Oct 11 2019 03:50 pm

You're right it was really about IE and netscape was the big complainer but Apple complained about MS and their practices too. Maybe they just rode the negative press to their advantage.

But it sure seems like apple is guilty of many of the same practices they complained about.

Sure feels like you have less freedoms with apple products than you do with any others out there.

Yeah, Apple may be doing some of the same types of things. Apple might not be trying to control the browser market or anything, but it seems Apple has been getting more restrictive on the software they allow to be installed on their computers.

I know Apple wants to protect their image of having a good ecosystem of quality software, but I don't think they can take all the responsibility of filtering out bad software. And I don't think the team at Apple would necessarily know what everyone would need with various software packages, so they might not be fully competent in approving software that might fill a particular niche or business need, etc. Or what if a company wants to develop a game for one of their platforms and Apple decides they don't want that game on their platforms? Will it be okay for Apple to unilaterally block a particular program from their app store? Having too much red tape and process for approving software could end up reducing the amount of software available for their devices. One of the selling points of a computing device should be a large amount of software available from a variety of developers. Ideally it would all be quality software, but I'd be concerned that Apple's approval processes could end up restricting software availability.

Nightfox

Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Zombie Mambo on Fri Oct 11 2019 04:25 pm

Re: PCs, General
By: Zombie Mambo to Nightfox on Fri Oct 11 2019 03:50 pm

You're right it was really about IE and netscape was the big complainer but Apple complained about MS and their practices too. Maybe they just rode the negative press to their advantage.

But it sure seems like apple is guilty of many of the same practices th complained about.

Sure feels like you have less freedoms with apple products than you do with any others out there.

Yeah, Apple may be doing some of the same types of things. Apple might not

I know Apple wants to protect their image of having a good ecosystem of qual
need with various software packages, so they might not be fully competent i t want that game on their platforms? Will it be okay for Apple to unilateral evices. One of the selling points of a computing device should be a large a software availability.

Nightfox

Lets not forget Big Tech's political preferences as well. I could see apple not allowing apps from certain development groups or concerning certain social ideas that Apple deems innapropriate, misguided, or wrong... I don't want that.


Thanks,
Zombie Mambo

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Re: PCs, General
By: Nightfox to Android8675 on Wed Sep 25 2019 09:50 am

It depends on what device you're talking about. Apple's iPhone and iPad might have a finite lifespan if Apple decides to only go back so far with support with a new version of iOS. But I've herd Mac users often say their Mac computers last a long time, and that Apple tends to support them back fairly far, and that they keep chugging along. And even after Mac OS X stops supporting a certain model of Mac, you could probably install Linux or something on it, or even Windows these days (as long as they keep using Intel processors.. I've heard rumors that Apple might switch their Mac computers over to ARM processors starting next year).

NIghtfox

I've only experienced Apple with the iPhone 4s years ago. It was so locked down compared to Android and Windows Mobile then I went back to Android and haven't looked back. I've fiddled around with friends' Apple devices here and there and it hasn't changed in all these years. (don't use them, but repair them for everyone haha) It's like if all companies had Apple's mentality we wouldn't be having this conversation on DOVE-net right now because it would have long since been abandoned. Long live the PC! My current daily driver is the Google Pixel 3a XL, it's a nice mid grade phone. Anywho.. getting off topic here..
My kid is a millenial falcon teenager who is wrapped up in the Apple ecosystem and won't stay off my PC for games and homework. So here I am typing away on an old Dell Latitude D530 with WinXP SP3 (i love it) ... Two days ago I ordered her a refurbished iMac from BackMarket.com and plan on giving it to her for Christmas. It's for her, but it's really for my freedom back lol. It was $270 in all for an iMac (Mid-2011) i5 blah blah I know nothing about them. I went kind of in the middle, because my own desktop is a 2011 model and it works great. Don't know what I've gotten myself into, becuase I now have to learn the Mac system. Looks like Linux, but im sure im in for a shock. Hopefully it'll be minimal and I can get back to my office desktop. Let's hope. Woot woot!

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Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sun Sep 29 2019 04:40 pm

my uncle who is an electrician and mechanic calls it the weakest link theory. once you fix one thing and make it 100%, it stresses the other components until the next thing fails, and so on.

I like that way of thinking Nightfox. Makes since!

-aW

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Re: PCs, General
By: Sir Air Walker to MRO on Sun Nov 03 2019 08:49 am

Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sun Sep 29 2019 04:40 pm

my uncle who is an electrician and mechanic calls it the weakest link theory. once you fix one thing and make it 100%, it stresses the other components until the next thing fails, and so on.

I like that way of thinking Nightfox. Makes since!

i'm the guy that said it
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Re: PCs, General
By: MRO to Sir Air Walker on Sun Nov 03 2019 12:11 pm

I like that way of thinking Nightfox. Makes since!

i'm the guy that said it

Me bad MRO!


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Re: PCs, General
By: Sir Air Walker to MRO on Sun Nov 03 2019 08:49 am

my uncle who is an electrician and mechanic calls it the weakest link
theory. once you fix one thing and make it 100%, it stresses the other
components until the next thing fails, and so on.

I like that way of thinking Nightfox. Makes since!

It was MRO who wrote that (who you also replied to)..

Nightfox