Im debating between a macbook air and a gaming laptop using windows. The big issue is
making sure the laptops have good thermals.
---
■ wcQWK 8.0 ≈ Inland Utopia * iutopia.duckdns.org:2323

Re: laptops
By: MATTHEW MUNSON to all on Sat Oct 24 2020 10:48 am

Im debating between a macbook air and a gaming laptop using windows. The big issue is
making sure the laptops have good thermals.

Macbook Air's are super light and power efficient so I imagine they would run quite cool. Don't buy one yet, they're about to announce the very first ARM powered Macbook. I bet it runs super cool and fast.

|08~|05B|03ob|08:|06R|03ob|08~
|07



... Documentation - The worst part of programming.

---
■ Synchronet ■ Halls of Valhalla <> San Francisco <> hovalbbs.com

Re: laptops
By: MATTHEW MUNSON to all on Sat Oct 24 2020 10:48 am

Im debating between a macbook air and a gaming laptop using windows. The big issue is
making sure the laptops have good thermals.

Why are thermals important? Why not the fact that Apples are overpriced pieces of sh__? Which gaming laptop? Why do you need a gaming laptop for [what I assume is to] running a BBS?


--
Android8675@ShodansCore

---
■ Synchronet ■ Shodan's Core @ ShodansCore.com

Re: laptops
By: Android8675 to MATTHEW MUNSON on Tue Oct 27 2020 08:31 am

Why are thermals important? Why not the fact that Apples are overpriced pieces of sh__? Which gaming
laptop? Why do you need a gaming laptop for [what I assume is to] running a BBS?

Wait until the ARM powered laptops come out and blow away any Intel chip in thermals and performance. They're already blowing away qualcom chips with Apple Silicon in the iphone.

It's a great time to get into Apple.

|08~|05B|03ob|08:|06R|03ob|08~
|07



... A critic is a legless man who teaches running.

---
■ Synchronet ■ Halls of Valhalla <> San Francisco <> hovalbbs.com

On 10/24/2020 7:16 PM, Bob Roberts wrote:

Macbook Air's are super light and power efficient so I imagine they would run quite cool. Don't buy one yet, they're about to announce the very first ARM powered Macbook. I bet it runs super cool and fast.

I'm pretty sure ARM macbooks are a dead end... I can install linux on
the oldest intel macbook to this day, I doubt that will ever be true for
ARM based macbooks. They're killing the homebrew scene.

That's not to say they won't run okay... just I'll have absolutely zero interrest at that point myself.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

---
þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20

Re: laptops
By: Bob Roberts to Android8675 on Tue Oct 27 2020 05:51 pm

Wait until the ARM powered laptops come out and blow away any Intel chip in thermals and performance. They're already blowing away qualcom chips with Apple Silicon in the iphone.

It's a great time to get into Apple.

I'm curious how ARM is with things like video encoding and transcoding, distributed computing, and other computing-intensive tasks. Maybe they've caught up with Intel & AMD by now?

Nightfox

Im debating between a macbook air and a gaming laptop using windows. Th issue is
making sure the laptops have good thermals.

Why are thermals important? Why not the fact that Apples are overpriced piecesof sh__? Which gaming laptop? Why do you need a gaming laptop for [what Iassume is to] running a BBS?

The Apple things still rages on with some people. I think Apples are great for some things.

I use Raspberry Pi's for small network, server and tasks. I use T430s Thinkpads for my laptop/linux platform, but I still use nice shiny Apple iMac 27" for my day to day driver/content consumption.

They are powerful. They run a capable and easy to use OS. They look awesome, and serve up content in a way that just works out of the box and... if you use AppleTV/iPhone/HomePod (Apple devices) they implement eachother great.

Apple's rock.

For the OP, it depends on what you're trying to DO. You said thermals, so I wonder if you're trying to play a bunch of games or build software/develop code??? Depending on what type of horsepower you need I would suggest different levels of my own setup to you. The Thinkpad T420-T440 series can be had from $100-200 and some are even socketed and allow for upgrades to still capable processors. Cheap, linux, good.

If you have money, and possibly other Apple devices, you won't go wrong getting a MacBook Pro. They work, look great and WORK.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

Macbook Air's are super light and power efficient so I imagine they woul quite cool. Don't buy one yet, they're about to announce the very first powered Macbook. I bet it runs super cool and fast.

I'm pretty sure ARM macbooks are a dead end... I can install linux on
the oldest intel macbook to this day, I doubt that will ever be true for ARM based macbooks. They're killing the homebrew scene.

That's not to say they won't run okay... just I'll have absolutely zero interrest at that point myself.

Manjaro ARM is getting pretty great. I'm running it on a RockChip ARM processor, which is pretty barebones and development is coming along really nicely. Still a few tech glitches, but they are rounding out their ARM offering pretty nicely. Am I missing something?? - we can load ARM linux software on these new Macs right?



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

Re: Re: laptops
By: Tracker1 to Bob Roberts on Tue Oct 27 2020 05:55 pm

I'm pretty sure ARM macbooks are a dead end... I can install linux on
the oldest intel macbook to this day, I doubt that will ever be true for ARM based macbooks. They're killing the homebrew scene.

I'm not sure why you would want to install linux directly on Mac hardware. The reason to invest in a Mac is to use Mac OS and the tight integration between the OS and the hardware. It's easy to virtualize linux on top of Mac OS using many different tools like Docker, Parallels, VMWare, Virtual Box, etc. Big Sur also debuts Mac OS's built in hypervisor, which should make it even more efficient.

|08~|05B|03ob|08:|06R|03ob|08~
|07



... On a clear disk you can seek forever.

---
■ Synchronet ■ Halls of Valhalla <> San Francisco <> hovalbbs.com

Re: laptops
By: Nightfox to Bob Roberts on Tue Oct 27 2020 07:41 pm

I'm curious how ARM is with things like video encoding and transcoding, distributed computing, and other computing-intensive tasks. Maybe they've caught up with Intel & AMD by now?

Well, keep in mind this isn't just an off-the-shelf ARM processor. It's custom Apple Silicon based on the ARM instruction set. It has built in coprocessors for ML, graphics, power management, storage, etc. But you're right, the big test will be when they transition their Mac Pro line of hardware to ARM, as the focus of that line is to professional content creators.

|08~|05B|03ob|08:|06R|03ob|08~
|07



... Everybody is somebody else's weirdo.

---
■ Synchronet ■ Halls of Valhalla <> San Francisco <> hovalbbs.com

Re: Re: laptops
By: Tracker1 to Bob Roberts on Tue Oct 27 2020 05:55 pm

Macbook Air's are super light and power efficient so I imagine they
would run quite cool. Don't buy one yet, they're about to announce
the very first ARM powered Macbook. I bet it runs super cool and
fast.

I'm pretty sure ARM macbooks are a dead end... I can install linux on
the oldest intel macbook to this day, I doubt that will ever be true for ARM based macbooks. They're killing the homebrew scene.

That's not to say they won't run okay... just I'll have absolutely zero interrest at that point myself.

most Linux distros run fine on ARM. And if you absolutely have to run something not compiled on ARM, you can always do it in a VM.

DaiTengu

... Old age is life's parody.

---
■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com

I'm curious how ARM is with things like video encoding and transcoding, distributed computing, and other computing-intensive tasks. Maybe they'vecaught up with Intel & AMD by now?

If you like to Tinker, grab this PineBook Pro for $199.

I've found that ARM (the Pi, Pine stuff, other SBCs) is capable but underpowered - however the price point is solid and for built tasks they do a LOT for me.

You can get the things done, but yer not breaking any speed records or running on bleeding edge hardware.. yer not running the newest games or apps, but there are usually ways to get most things done.

Manjaro ARM is really helping give the ARM community a solid Arch-based linux distro. I think they are worth a look, and depending on your needs can be implemented to do things in your home network. Heck, for some small businesses or tasks, I can see them running the menu or network tasks.

??? I think our tech is so advanced that looking at low-cost low-performance solutions is intelligent.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

Re: Re: laptops
By: paulie420 to Nightfox on Wed Oct 28 2020 09:36 am

I'm curious how ARM is with things like video encoding and
transcoding, distributed computing, and other computing-intensive
tasks. Maybe they'vecaught up with Intel & AMD by now?

If you like to Tinker, grab this PineBook Pro for $199.

Which PineBook Pro? Which one is "this"?

Nightfox

Re: Re: laptops
By: Bob Roberts to Tracker1 on Wed Oct 28 2020 08:21 am

Re: Re: laptops
By: Tracker1 to Bob Roberts on Tue Oct 27 2020 05:55 pm

I'm pretty sure ARM macbooks are a dead end... I can install linux on the oldest intel macbook to this day, I doubt that will ever be true for ARM based macbooks. They're killing the homebrew scene.

I'm not sure why you would want to install linux directly on Mac hardware.

https://www.cultofmac.com/162823/linux-creator-linus-torvalds-i-love-my-macbook-air/
--
digital man

Synchronet "Real Fact" #47:
The Synchronet Museum is online at http://wiki.synchro.net/history:museum:index Norco, CA WX: 76.6°F, 19.0% humidity, 3 mph NW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

---
■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Re: Re: laptops
By: Bob Roberts to Tracker1 on Wed Oct 28 2020 08:21 am

I'm not sure why you would want to install linux directly on Mac hardware.

Maybe the same reason you'd want to install Linux directly on any computer.

The reason to invest in a Mac is to use Mac OS and the tight integration between the OS and the hardware.

How is Mac OS integrated with the hardware more tightly than other operating systems? And I'm not sure what that even means?

It's easy to virtualize linux on top of
Mac OS using many different tools like Docker, Parallels, VMWare, Virtual Box, etc. Big Sur also debuts Mac OS's built in hypervisor, which should make it even more efficient.

An OS is always most efficient when running directly on the hardware.

Nightfox

Re: Re: laptops
By: paulie420 to Nightfox on Wed Oct 28 2020 09:36 am

I'm curious how ARM is with things like video encoding and transcoding, distributed computing, and other computing-intensive tasks. Maybe they'vecaught up with Intel & AMD by now?

If you like to Tinker, grab this PineBook Pro for $199.

I've found that ARM (the Pi, Pine stuff, other SBCs) is capable but underpow

You can get the things done, but yer not breaking any speed records or runni

Manjaro ARM is really helping give the ARM community a solid Arch-based linu m running the menu or network tasks.

??? I think our tech is so advanced that looking at low-cost low-performance

|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

I've been looking ata the Pinebooks, as wells as the Pinephone. I set up a Rock64 sbc to run a display for anon-profit I help out with, and it's been running solid. So far I've had better performance running Armbian over
Ubuntu MATE, however I'm curious to see how the Manjaro based phone OS will work.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: Re: laptops
By: Nightfox to paulie420 on Wed Oct 28 2020 12:23 pm

Re: Re: laptops
By: paulie420 to Nightfox on Wed Oct 28 2020 09:36 am

I'm curious how ARM is with things like video encoding and
transcoding, distributed computing, and other computing-intensive
tasks. Maybe they'vecaught up with Intel & AMD by now?

If you like to Tinker, grab this PineBook Pro for $199.

Which PineBook Pro? Which one is "this"?

Nightfox

Pine makes two models - the Pinebook and Pinebook Pro. The difference is the Pro is a generation newer, and better spec'd than the non-Pro that sold for $100 less.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: Re: laptops
By: Digital Man to Bob Roberts on Wed Oct 28 2020 01:33 pm

Re: Re: laptops
By: Bob Roberts to Tracker1 on Wed Oct 28 2020 08:21 am

Re: Re: laptops
By: Tracker1 to Bob Roberts on Tue Oct 27 2020 05:55 pm

I'm pretty sure ARM macbooks are a dead end... I can install linux o the oldest intel macbook to this day, I doubt that will ever be true for ARM based macbooks. They're killing the homebrew scene.

I'm not sure why you would want to install linux directly on Mac hardware

https://www.cultofmac.com/162823/linux-creator-linus-torvalds-i-love-my-macb --
digital man

Synchronet "Real Fact" #47:
The Synchronet Museum is online at http://wiki.synchro.net/history:museum:in Norco, CA WX: 76.6°F, 19.0% humidity, 3 mph NW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

Some distros such as Ubuntu MATE are intended for older systems with lower resources. Switching over from OSX to an OS running less overhead should result in better performance.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Tracker1 wrote to Bob Roberts <=-

I'm pretty sure ARM macbooks are a dead end... I can install linux on
the oldest intel macbook to this day, I doubt that will ever be true
for ARM based macbooks. They're killing the homebrew scene.

There's ARM-based distros, wonder if Apple would let you boot them.


... Consider different fading systems
--- MultiMail/XT v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org

Moondog wrote to Digital Man <=-

Some distros such as Ubuntu MATE are intended for older systems with
lower resources. Switching over from OSX to an OS running less
overhead should result in better performance.

Lubuntu is another fine choice for low-end systems. Uses LXDE and a
selection of smaller-footprint apps than vanilla Ubuntu. I ran it
well on single-core Thinkpads with a gig of RAM for years.

... Abandon desire
--- MultiMail/XT v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org

I've been looking ata the Pinebooks, as wells as the Pinephone. I set
up aRock64 sbc to run a display for anon-profit I help out with, and
it's beenrunning solid. So far I've had better performance running Armbian overUbuntu MATE, however I'm curious to see how the Manjaro
based phone OS willwork.

---

I really like Armbian, too... especially if I'm designing something that
may need a light GUI for some other end user to be able to maintain...
but man, I think you'll really like Manjaro ARM. It is getting really
polished, and continues to get better and better on the PineBook Pro.
Manjaro team is supporting the hardware and really dialing everything in
well.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

Re: Re: laptops
By: Digital Man to Bob Roberts on Wed Oct 28 2020 01:33 pm

I'm pretty sure ARM macbooks are a dead end... I can install linux
on the oldest intel macbook to this day, I doubt that will ever be
true for ARM based macbooks. They're killing the homebrew scene.

I'm not sure why you would want to install linux directly on Mac
hardware.

https://www.cultofmac.com/162823/linux-creator-linus-torvalds-i-love-my-ma cbook-air/ --

Everyone knows Linus is insane. Brilliant, but insane.

DaiTengu

... Interchangeable parts won't.

---
■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com

On 10/27/2020 8:31 AM, ANDROID8675 wrote to MATTHEW MUNSON:

Re: laptops
By: MATTHEW MUNSON to all on Sat Oct 24 2020 10:48 am

Im debating between a macbook air and a gaming laptop using windows. The big
issue is
making sure the laptops have good thermals.

Why are thermals important? Why not the fact that Apples are overpriced pieces of

sh__? Which gaming laptop? Why do you need a gaming laptop for [what I assume is to]
running a BBS?
Its not for running a bbs, I have my ryzen box to run the bbs. I was thinking the Dell G5
2020 with the i7 and 2060 graphics.

Something good for video editing, bbs user tools like multimail and syncterm and final
fantasy 14.
---
■ wcQWK 8.0 ≈ Inland Utopia * iutopia.duckdns.org:2323

Re: RE: laptops
By: MATTHEW MUNSON to ANDROID8675 on Sat Oct 31 2020 08:03 am

On 10/27/2020 8:31 AM, ANDROID8675 wrote to MATTHEW MUNSON:

Re: laptops
By: MATTHEW MUNSON to all on Sat Oct 24 2020 10:48 am

Im debating between a macbook air and a gaming laptop using
windows. The big
issue is
making sure the laptops have good thermals.

Why are thermals important? Why not the fact that Apples are
overpriced pieces of

sh__? Which gaming laptop? Why do you need a gaming laptop for [what I assume is to]
running a BBS?
Its not for running a bbs, I have my ryzen box to run the bbs. I was thinking the Dell G5
2020 with the i7 and 2060 graphics.

Something good for video editing, bbs user tools like multimail and syncterm and final
fantasy 14.

there is something wrong with your editor.

anyways, you know what type of computer to get. i wouldnt get a laptop. why would you get a laptop if you're not going to take it anywhere. you can get a tiny desktop computer with muscle.
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: laptops
By: paulie420 to Moondog on Fri Oct 30 2020 05:15 pm

I've been looking ata the Pinebooks, as wells as the Pinephone. I set up aRock64 sbc to run a display for anon-profit I help out with, and it's beenrunning solid. So far I've had better performance running Armbian overUbuntu MATE, however I'm curious to see how the Manjaro based phone OS willwork.

---

I really like Armbian, too... especially if I'm designing something that
may need a light GUI for some other end user to be able to maintain...
but man, I think you'll really like Manjaro ARM. It is getting really polished, and continues to get better and better on the PineBook Pro. Manjaro team is supporting the hardware and really dialing everything in well.

|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

I had Manjaro running for awhile on a ten year old netbook I use for testing distros. I liked it. It ran fine on oldrer hardware.

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

On 10/28/2020 8:48 AM, DaiTengu wrote:

I'm pretty sure ARM macbooks are a dead end... I can install linux on
the oldest intel macbook to this day, I doubt that will ever be true for
ARM based macbooks. They're killing the homebrew scene.

most Linux distros run fine on ARM. And if you absolutely have to

run something not compiled on ARM, you can always do it in a VM.
Try getting Linux running on an old iPad and tell me how that goes.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

---
þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com

On 10/28/2020 12:23 PM, Nightfox wrote:

If you like to Tinker, grab this PineBook Pro for $199.

Which PineBook Pro? Which one is "this"?

I'm assuming https://www.pine64.org/pinebook-pro/

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

---
þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com

On 10/28/2020 8:57 PM, Nightfox wrote:

How is Mac OS integrated with the hardware more tightly than other operating systems? And I'm not sure what that even means?

They've effectively created their own TPM chips that displace a lot of
Intel functionality, that they can register their hardware devices with.

For example, you can swap the cameras on two iPhone 12 devices and you
will see random glitchiness... swap them back, work fine. This is
because they intentionally put buggy behavior not just with "valid" components, but those registered directly on the device.

It's easy to virtualize linux on top of
Mac OS using many different tools like Docker, Parallels, VMWare, Virtual
Box, etc. Big Sur also debuts Mac OS's built in hypervisor, which should
make it even more efficient.

An OS is always most efficient when running directly on the hardware.

True, but modern virtualization hooks in the processors helps a bit if
you're emulating for the same architecture... that said, Mac switching
to ARM won't really help x86 software in emulation much.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

---
þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com

On 10/28/2020 7:49 AM, poindexter FORTRAN wrote:

I'm pretty sure ARM macbooks are a dead end... I can install linux on
the oldest intel macbook to this day, I doubt that will ever be true
for ARM based macbooks. They're killing the homebrew scene.

There's ARM-based distros, wonder if Apple would let you boot them.

From what they've done with iOS devices, seriously doubtful. Today's
Apple products are tomorrow's e-waste.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

---
þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com

On 10/29/2020 6:34 AM, poindexter FORTRAN wrote:

Some distros such as Ubuntu MATE are intended for older systems with
lower resources. Switching over from OSX to an OS running less
overhead should result in better performance.

Lubuntu is another fine choice for low-end systems. Uses LXDE and a
selection of smaller-footprint apps than vanilla Ubuntu. I ran it
well on single-core Thinkpads with a gig of RAM for years.

Exactly, not to mention the security concerns of running something new
vs. a 7yo unmaintained OS.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

---
þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com

Re: Re: laptops
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Nov 03 2020 03:50 pm

An OS is always most efficient when running directly on the hardware.

True, but modern virtualization hooks in the processors helps a bit if you're emulating for the same architecture... that said, Mac switching
to ARM won't really help x86 software in emulation much.

That's one thing that confuses me a bit about Apple's decision to switch to ARM for their Macs. Since they switched to Intel, one of their big selling points is now they can run both Mac OS and Windows software natively. Boot Camp allows dual-booting between Mac OS and Windows, but you can also run Windows in a virtual machine relatively fast within Mac OS. I imagine you could also install an x86-based Linux distro on it if you wanted to.

At the same time, I've heard Microsoft has a version of Windows 10 that runs on ARM and runs desktop software. I've heard it also has a 32-bit Intel x86 emulator so you can run Intel x86 desktop software on ARM with it.

Nightfox

On 11/4/2020 9:23 AM, Nightfox wrote:

True, but modern virtualization hooks in the processors helps a bit if
you're emulating for the same architecture... that said, Mac switching
to ARM won't really help x86 software in emulation much.

That's one thing that confuses me a bit about Apple's decision to

switch to ARM for their Macs. Since they switched to Intel, one of
their big selling points is now they can run both Mac OS and Windows
software natively. Boot Camp allows dual-booting between Mac OS and
Windows, but you can also run Windows in a virtual machine relatively
fast within Mac OS. I imagine you could also install an x86-based Linux distro on it if you wanted to.

At the same time, I've heard Microsoft has a version of Windows 10

that runs on ARM and runs desktop software. I've heard it also has a
32-bit Intel x86 emulator so you can run Intel x86 desktop software on
ARM with it.
I think the biggest difference is Apple experience in-house with
designing their own chips has improved dramatically with iOS devices and
they have the confidence to have their own designs now. Not to mention
moves to increasingly lock down hardware.

As to emulating windows, or running windows apps, I'm not sure if they
will work with MS towards better support, or drop the idea altogether
since core MS apps have Apple and Online versions, and there's likely
less use of Windows emulation these days compared to even a few years ago.

For developers on Mac devices, Docker/Linux emulation is probably much
more common and aarch64 support on Linux is pretty close to x86-64
levels of general support at this point. Even MS is headed this
direction in extended support for WSL2/Docker integration being top
notch, and would expect similar from Apple in the future.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

---
þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com

Re: Re: laptops
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Wed Nov 04 2020 04:12 pm

That's one thing that confuses me a bit about Apple's decision to

switch to ARM for their Macs. Since they switched to Intel, one of

What editor are you using? When you quoted my paragraphs, it was only putting a quote character (>) on the first line, and the rest of the lines in my paragraphs didn't have a quote character in front.

As to emulating windows, or running windows apps, I'm not sure if they will work with MS towards better support, or drop the idea altogether since core MS apps have Apple and Online versions, and there's likely less use of Windows emulation these days compared to even a few years ago.

It's not "Windows emulation" (I haven't heard that term anyway). Currently, Windows can run on Macs because they use Intel processors - there's no emulation involved. And for the ARM macs, they'd have to emulate an Intel processor to enable Windows to run - not necessarily emulating Windows (I'm not enturely sure what "Windows emulation" would mean, exactly).

Nightfox

On 11/4/2020 10:38 PM, Nightfox wrote:

That's one thing that confuses me a bit about Apple's decision to

switch to ARM for their Macs. Since they switched to Intel, one of

What editor are you using? When you quoted my paragraphs, it was only putting a quote character (>) on the first line, and the rest of the lines in my paragraphs didn't have a quote character in front.

Yeah, it does that (Thunderbird over NNTP). It's because your original message doesn't include actual line breaks, so it's a long, single line
in the quote.

As to emulating windows, or running windows apps, I'm not sure if they
will work with MS towards better support, or drop the idea altogether
since core MS apps have Apple and Online versions, and there's likely
less use of Windows emulation these days compared to even a few years ago.

It's not "Windows emulation" (I haven't heard that term anyway). Currently, Windows can run on Macs because they use Intel processors - there's no emulation involved. And for the ARM macs, they'd have to emulate an Intel processor to enable Windows to run - not necessarily emulating Windows (I'm not enturely sure what "Windows emulation" would mean, exactly).

I was referring to the ARM case, where using Windows apps would likely
be via emulation, and on ARM for x86 windows would be a poor experience
most likely. Of course there is Windows ARM, but without x86 there are
so few apps that are Windows ARM and Windows Only that it's not worth
the effort most likely.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

---
þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com

Re: Re: laptops
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Thu Nov 05 2020 10:27 am

What editor are you using? When you quoted my paragraphs, it was only
putting a quote character (>) on the first line, and the rest of the
lines in my paragraphs didn't have a quote character in front.

Yeah, it does that (Thunderbird over NNTP). It's because your original message doesn't include actual line breaks, so it's a long, single line in the quote.

Both SlyEdit and FSEditor for Synchronet do that now. The assumption is that the reader should handle line wrapping. Is there a way to configure the line length for quoting messages in Thunderbird?

I was referring to the ARM case, where using Windows apps would likely
be via emulation, and on ARM for x86 windows would be a poor experience most likely. Of course there is Windows ARM, but without x86 there are
so few apps that are Windows ARM and Windows Only that it's not worth
the effort most likely.

I think it's geting more interesting now that Microsoft is developing a version of Windows 10 for ARM now too. I've heard that version of Windows 10 also has a 32-bit x86 emulator so that you can run 32-bit Intel desktop software in the ARM version of Windows 10. So it sounds like Intel processor emulation can be done on ARM, at least for a 32-bit Intel processor. What's also interesting is you might be able to run the ARM version of Windows 10 on an ARM mac with Boot Camp, or in a virtual machine, the same way you can run Windows for Intel on an Intel Mac.

Nightfox

On 11/5/2020 8:13 PM, Nightfox wrote:

Yeah, it does that (Thunderbird over NNTP). It's because your original
message doesn't include actual line breaks, so it's a long, single line
in the quote.

Both SlyEdit and FSEditor for Synchronet do that now. The assumption is
that the reader should handle line wrapping. Is there a way to
configure the line length for quoting messages in Thunderbird?

It wraps to the natural view in reading. It does wrap what is
typed/added as you type, but not quoted parts, it leaves those pretty
much as-is. And Thunderbird feels like they've been removing pieces
lately and don't know that it'll change.

I was referring to the ARM case, where using Windows apps would likely
be via emulation, and on ARM for x86 windows would be a poor experience
most likely. Of course there is Windows ARM, but without x86 there are
so few apps that are Windows ARM and Windows Only that it's not worth
the effort most likely.

I think it's geting more interesting now that Microsoft is developing a version of Windows 10 for ARM now too. I've heard that version of
Windows 10 also has a 32-bit x86 emulator so that you can run 32-bit
Intel desktop software in the ARM version of Windows 10.

Yeah, I don't suspect that Mac will allow booting another OS, also don't
know about virtualizing x86 windows on arm windows, emulated on arm mac.

So it sounds
like Intel processor emulation can be done on ARM, at least for a 32-bit Intel processor. What's also interesting is you might be able to run the
ARM version of Windows 10 on an ARM mac with Boot Camp, or in a virtual machine, the same way you can run Windows for Intel on an Intel Mac.

I wouldn't expect a bootcamp option for ARM macs at all if you consider
iOS device lockdown. Emulation might work, and may be crazy slow. I'm
just not sure what practical applications most users need that would necessitate an x86 windows emulation on an ARM mac.

Note: I'm not against it, I just don't see it happening.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

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Re: Re: laptops
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Fri Nov 06 2020 12:29 pm

Yeah, I don't suspect that Mac will allow booting another OS, also don't know about virtualizing x86 windows on arm windows, emulated on arm mac.

I wouldn't expect a bootcamp option for ARM macs at all if you consider iOS device lockdown. Emulation might work, and may be crazy slow. I'm just not sure what practical applications most users need that would necessitate an x86 windows emulation on an ARM mac.

Note: I'm not against it, I just don't see it happening.

The ability to boot Windows on an Intel Mac has been one of their selling points since they switched to Intel processors. Since both Apple and Microsoft are now making versions of their OS for ARM-based processors, I imagined Apple would still want to allow booting Windows to appeal to those who'd want to do that. But I guess they could go either way.

Nightfox

On 11/6/2020 4:43 PM, Nightfox wrote:

Note: I'm not against it, I just don't see it happening.

The ability to boot Windows on an Intel Mac has been one of their
selling points since they switched to Intel processors. Since both
Apple and Microsoft are now making versions of their OS for ARM-
based processors, I imagined Apple would still want to allow booting
Windows to appeal to those who'd want to do that. But I guess they
could go either way.

Just based on their actions with iOS, and that Macs are largely only
sold for media production and to support (mostly Apple) software
development, I just don't see them caring about keeping that ability. I
do think they may take some effort to make Docker work better for
developers, not sure if they'd get to WSL2 type levels though.

They're really about locking down the boot loader and system access,
allowing for booting other OSes may undermine that... Not to mention,
it's not generic arm and has some custom chipsets involved from Apple it
may not even work well then.

--
Michael J. Ryan
tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

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Re: Re: laptops
By: Nightfox to Tracker1 on Fri Nov 06 2020 03:43 pm

points since they switched to Intel processors. Since both Apple and Microsoft are now making versions of their OS for ARM-based processors, I imagined Apple would still want to allow booting Windows to appeal to those who'd want to do that. But I guess they could go either way.

We should know soon enough. Rumor is the Apple Event on 11/10 will be the release of the Apple Silicon based iMac, 13 inch and 16 inch Macbooks. I'm sure our favorite YouTube tech reviewers will get them soon.

|01bobbobbobbob|09bob|03bob|11bob|03bob|09bob|01bobbobbob |01robrobrobrob|09rob|03rob|11rob|03rob|09rob|01robrobrob
|07




... Common sense is instinct. Enough of it is genius.

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Re: Re: laptops
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Moondog on Thu Oct 29 2020 06:34 am

Lubuntu is another fine choice for low-end systems. Uses LXDE and a
selection of smaller-footprint apps than vanilla Ubuntu. I ran it
well on single-core Thinkpads with a gig of RAM for years.

I have an old thinkpad with a duo core and 4gb of Ram that came with Windows 8 Stock. It still has the old Windows 7 build I replaced the base system with, but I'm playing with Linux Distros now. Mint on xkde gets me good performance, but I'm finding it limited in terms of trying to get things set up the way I want. Namely, I'm having a hard time replacing with window managers and default terminal. I hope replacing my shell commands won't be hard either. I'm only a day in since having dropped Linux in Highschool.

■ Crystal Palace, Orbitsville ■
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Re: Re: laptops
By: Tracker1 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Nov 03 2020 03:52 pm

From what they've done with iOS devices, seriously doubtful. Today's
Apple products are tomorrow's e-waste.

That's just more loot for me, the dumpster diver who's desk is made of two metal trashcans keeping up a surface that's made of two flat cardboard boxes ducktaped together, and filled with trash to add structral integrity.

Shit, with all that spare mineral resources I can take to the recycler plant, I'll have enough money to get a bus ticket to the city so I can steal a bike and take it apart and put it back together in my garage for hours.

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