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---
￭ Synchronet ￭ Vertrauen ￭ Home of Synchronet ￭ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

I cannot read TLDR's postings via Synchronix's NNTP interface.
My newsreader show empty message and an attachment with the article.
It is probably becase of:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=LTHhL24U

Is it required?
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Re: Re: Hacking OpenAI =?UTF-8?B?wr/Cvyw=?= Claude leads R&D=?UTF-8?B?wr8s?= Safari MCP =?UTF-8?B?wr8=?=
By: ant to TLDR on Fri Sep 18 2026 03:10 pm

Is it required?

Not required for anything - it's just a tech article/newsletter.
--
digital man (rob)

Synchronet "Real Fact" #130:
Synchronet v3.20b was released on January 3, 2025 (3 years after v3.19b)
Norco, CA WX: 77.1°F, 58.0% humidity, 8 mph WSW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs ---
■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Hey ant!

On Fri, Sep 18 2026 15:10:20 +0300, ant wrote to TLDR:

I cannot read TLDR's postings via Synchronix's NNTP interface.
My newsreader show empty message and an attachment with the article. It is probably becase of:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=LTHhL24U

Is it required?

Not required at all, however.. there are newsreaders that can read these messages perfectly fine. I can confirm from my own experience, that Thunderbird, slrn, and tin all work fine.

What are you using?

Regards,
Accession

... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
--- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.8
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Accession <VERT/PHARCYDE!Accession@nix.synchro.net> wrote:

Hey ant!

On Fri, Sep 18 2026 15:10:20 +0300, ant wrote to TLDR:

I cannot read TLDR's postings via Synchronix's NNTP interface.
My newsreader show empty message and an attachment with the article. It is >a> probably becase of:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=LTHhL24U

Is it required?

Not required at all, however.. there are newsreaders that can read these messages perfectly fine. I can confirm from my own experience, that Thunderbird, slrn, and tin all work fine.

What are you using?

I was using Sylpheed when I first noticed the problem. Now I am
replying via Tin, having tested that it also fails to display TLDR's
posts. Beg you pardon for e-mail-style quoting, because I don't know
(yet) how to configure the Fidonet-style quoting in Tin on a per-server
basis.
---
■ Synchronet ■ My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Hey ant!

On Fri, Sep 18 2026 20:01:20 -0400, ant wrote to Accession:

What are you using?

I was using Sylpheed when I first noticed the problem. Now I am replying via Tin, having tested that it also fails to display TLDR's posts. Beg you pardon for e-mail-style quoting, because I don't know (yet) how to configure the Fidonet-style quoting in Tin on a per-server basis.

I did notice you were using ASCII in Sylpheed, and now you're using CP437. I think you might have to use UTF-8, and that will also change your settings for quoted-printable and mime encoded messages (use what it sets for you).

As for quoting, depending on what you're using (ie. external editor, or the newsreader's built in editor).. I use nano as an external editor, and if you go to the first column of a paragraph, and hit CTRL-J, it will re-quote the paragraph in proper form. In Thunderbird, CTRL-R does the same thing. I'm not sure what to do with Tin's internal editor, though.

Regards,
Accession

... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
--- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.8
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Re: Re: Hacking OpenAI ??, Claude leads R&D?,
By: ant to Accession on Fri Sep 18 2026 08:01 pm

Not required at all, however.. there are newsreaders that can read these messages perfectly fine. I can confirm from my own experience, that Thunderbird, slrn, and tin all work fine.

What are you using?

I was using Sylpheed when I first noticed the problem. Now I am
replying via Tin, having tested that it also fails to display TLDR's
posts. Beg you pardon for e-mail-style quoting, because I don't know
(yet) how to configure the Fidonet-style quoting in Tin on a per-server basis.

you could always write a script to parse your msg bases and fix them up for you.




--
https://i.imgur.com/MNKA5U0.png
President of BBS Sysop's Union +++ https://bbses.info/union
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

With nicks instead of traditional name-surname names, the
Fido-style quotaiton does not seem to work very well, so
I'll use playwright style to summarise the preceding
discussion and post a followup under an updated title:

ant:
I cannot read TLDR's postings via Synchronix's NNTP
interface. My newsreader show empty message and an
attachment with the article. It is probably becase of:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=LTHhL24U

Is it required?

Accession:
Not required at all, however.. there are newsreaders that
can read these messages perfectly fine. I can confirm
from my own experience, that Thunderbird, slrn, and tin
all work fine.

ant:
I was using Sylpheed when I first noticed the problem.
Now I am replying via Tin, having tested that it also
fails to display TLDR's posts. Beg you pardon for e-
mail-style quoting, because I don't know (yet) how to
configure the Fidonet-style quoting in Tin on a per-
server basis.

Accession:
I did notice you were using ASCII in Sylpheed, and now
you're using CP437. I think you might have to use UTF-8,
and that will also change your settings for quoted-
printable and mime encoded messages (use what it sets for
you).

Having investigated this issue, I conclude that it is caused
not by encoding settings in either Sylpheed or Tin, but
rather by the structure of TLDR's multipart attachments,
which has been broken since On 2026.02.02.

All of TLDR's posts made prior to 2026.02.02 are displayed
correctly both in Tin and Sylpheed, either newsreader
showing them as consisting of two parts/attachments: one
text/plain and one text/html. They are correcty formed
multiplart messages. For example, consider his last correct
post:

Subject: SpaceX merger ?, OpenAI races Anthropic IPO ?, AI replacing SaaS ??
Message-ID: <0100019c0ea4deb1-d7058a49-2933-4217-bd2b-3ca4760a2955-000000@email.amazonses.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2026 11:23:31 +0000

It has:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=HEQT47yB

and if you look for `--HEQT47yB' in the article body, you
will find the individual parts terminatd by a closing
boundary:

--HEQT47yB
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

SpaceX may potentially merge with Tesla and xAI. Some investors are
[...]
--HEQT47yB
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE html><html lang=3D"en"><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" co=
ntent=3D"text/html charset=3DUTF-8"><meta charset=3D"UTF-8"><meta name=3D"v=
iewport" content=3D"width=3Ddevice-width"><meta name=3D"x-apple-disable-mes=
sage-reformatting"><title>TLDR</title><meta name=3D"color-scheme" content=
=3D"light dark"><meta name=3D"supported-color-schemes" content=3D"light dar=
k"><style type=3D"text/css">
[...]
--HEQT47yB--

This is a correctly formed multipart message, compliant with
RFC1341.

Now consider the first "broken" message:

Subject: Elon needs capital ?, Nvidia OpenAI deal stalls ?, tech loyalty is dead ?
Message-ID: <0100019c1e1a756e-3581d6a7-96dc-4b59-9e84-d08de7ef1ec3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2026 11:26:16 +0000

Similar to the correct ones, it also has

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=h5nkvOqh

yet, if you search for `--h5nkvOqh', you shall find naught,
indicating that this "multiplart" message has no parts,
violating RFC1341, which requires "one or more" parts:

In the case of multiple part messages, in which one or
more different sets of data are combined in a single
body, a "multipart" Content-Type field must appear in the
entity's header. The body must then contain one or more
"body parts," each preceded by an encapsulation boundary,
and the last one followed by a closing boundary.

My newsreaders are therefore correct in displaying it as an
empty message.

Interestingly, TLDR's messages became malformed after this
post:

From: "Mortar" (VERT/EOTLBBS) <VERT/EOTLBBS!Mortar@nix.synchro.net>
To: finglonger
Subject: TLDR Reception
Message-ID: <697D1C92.646.dove-techtalk@endofthelinebbs.com>

where the poster complains that he cannor read them.

Since a since user's inability to read correct multipart
messages is a bad excuse to start posting in a malformed, non-standard-complying format, I hereby ask TLDR to please
either revert to the previos correct format, or -- much
better -- to post normal non-MIME plain-text messages.
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Accession:

ant:

Beg you pardon for e-mail-style quoting, because I don't
know (yet) how to configure the Fidonet-style quoting in
Tin on a per-server basis.

As for quoting, depending on what you're using (ie.
external editor, or the newsreader's built in editor).. I
use nano as an external editor, and if you go to the first
column of a paragraph, and hit CTRL-J, it will re-quote
the paragraph in proper form. In Thunderbird, CTRL-R does
the same thing. I'm not sure what to do with Tin's
internal editor, though.

I think you are talking about reflowing text within a given
quoting style, so that it fits a sensible line length (e.g.
72 characters), rather than using different quoting styles.

Do nano and TB support both e-mail style quotations (as
above), and Fidonet-style ones, as below:

a >> Beg you pardon for e-mail-style quoting, because I
a >> don't know (yet) how to configure the Fidonet-style
a >> quoting in Tin on a per-server basis.

As for quoting, depending on what you're using (ie.
external editor, or the newsreader's built in editor)..
I use nano as an external editor, and if you go to the
first column of a paragraph, and hit CTRL-J, it will re-
quote the paragraph in proper form. In Thunderbird,
CTRL-R does the same thing. I'm not sure what to do with
Tin's internal editor, though.

There is not such thing as Tin's built-in editor. It relies
on an external one, and I am using vi.

Although your own posts are declared as format=flowed, they
are not flowed at all, using MS-style with each paragraph
represented as a single long line, whereas true
format=flowed paragraphs are wrapped to 72 characters per
line or so, with each line but the last ending in a trailing
space.
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

I wrote to Accession:

There is not such thing as Tin's built-in editor. It
relies on an external one, and I am using vi.

That was only the starting sentence of paragraph I never
finished. I wanted to add that I will to use par[1] to
reflow quotations, but I cannot configure Tin or Sylpheed to
use different quoting styles for different accounts.
____________________
1. <http://www.nicemice.net/par/>
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Re: Re: Hacking OpenAI ??, Claude leads R&D?,
By: ant to Accession on Sat Sep 19 2026 18:40:54

From: "Mortar" (VERT/EOTLBBS) <VERT/EOTLBBS!Mortar@nix.synchro.net>
To: finglonger
Subject: TLDR Reception
Message-ID: <697D1C92.646.dove-techtalk@endofthelinebbs.com>
where the poster complains that he cannor read them.

Is there a date for this? I don't recall such a message.

---
■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com

Hey ant!

On Sat, Sep 19 2026 18:40:54 +0300, ant wrote to Accession:

Having investigated this issue, I conclude that it is caused not by encoding settings in either Sylpheed or Tin, but rather by the structure
of TLDR's multipart attachments, which has been broken since On
2026.02.02.

Okie dokie.. think what you want, but:

Thunderbird:
https://pharcyde.org/tldr-tb.png

slrn (which displays these exactly the same as Tin): https://pharcyde.org/tldr-slrn-headers.png https://pharcyde.org/tldr-slrn-message.png

I don't currently have tin installed, because I like slrn better. However, I have installed and used tin.. and it displays the messages exactly the same as slrn does, when setup correctly.

The date of the message is 9 days ago, which makes your investigation wrong.

For example, consider his last correct post:

Subject: SpaceX merger ?, OpenAI races Anthropic IPO ?, AI replacing SaaS ??

There's nothing correct about the question marks in the subject line above. That looks like if UTF-8 glyphs were to be viewed in something setup for CP437. om which it can't be translated.

--HEQT47yB
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Note "charset=utf-8" while you're using ascii and/or cp437.

Now consider the first "broken" message:

Subject: Elon needs capital ?, Nvidia OpenAI deal stalls ?, tech loyalty
is dead ?

Again, question marks where there are supposed to be UTF-8 glyphs. I can't really take your word for it if you can't keep the original message in tact as it was originally written.

My newsreaders are therefore correct in displaying it as an empty message.

Ok, lol.

Well, then ignore them, because they display perfectly fine for me and others. They even display fine, when Synchronet itself is configured correctly (ie. logged into the BBS). Is it possible that the specific site where you are viewing them from is messing up the original messages?

Since a since user's inability to read correct multipart
messages is a bad excuse to start posting in a malformed, non-standard-complying format, I hereby ask TLDR to please
either revert to the previos correct format, or -- much
better -- to post normal non-MIME plain-text messages.

Or, just ignore the message area if it doesn't work for you. Since you're using a newsreader, you can simply just unsubscribe.

It works for me, and I vote to keep it as is. 👍

If you can't see the UTF-8 glyph I just included in the line above, it's a "you" thing (or something messed it up between me and you).

Regards,
Accession

... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
--- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.8
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Hey ant!

On Sat, Sep 19 2026 18:54:42 +0300, ant wrote to Accession:

Do nano and TB support both e-mail style quotations (as above), and Fidonet-style ones, as below:

I don't think they do. However, I don't think they mess with them unless the line needs to be wrapped (see below).

Granted, I /rarely/ quote past the first quote level when replying to a message.

a >> Beg you pardon for e-mail-style quoting, because I a >> don't know (yet) how to configure the Fidonet-style a >> quoting in Tin on a per-server basis.

There is not such thing as Tin's built-in editor. It relies on an external one, and I am using vi.

Ok then, "gq" or "gqip" maybe? I don't use vi, but vi(m) also has the ability to do this.

Although your own posts are declared as format=flowed, they
are not flowed at all, using MS-style with each paragraph represented as a single long line, whereas true
format=flowed paragraphs are wrapped to 72 characters per
line or so, with each line but the last ending in a trailing space.

If you say so.

Definition of Format=Flowed

Format=flowed is a specification for formatting plain-text emails that allows for dynamic line wrapping. This method enables email clients to adjust the display of text based on the recipient's screen width while preserving the original structure of the message.

Seems like your side should wrap it to under 80 characters (see "enables email clients") if you want it to be. I can resize my screen and the text takes up the whole width at any given time.

Regards,
Accession

... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
--- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.8
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Hey ant!

On Sat, Sep 19 2026 19:02:40 +0300, ant wrote to ant:

That was only the starting sentence of paragraph I never finished. I
wanted to add that I will to use par[1] to
reflow quotations, but I cannot configure Tin or Sylpheed to
use different quoting styles for different accounts.

Tin can definitely support different quote prefixes, including initials before the quote character. Tin even mentions "fidonet-style quoting" in their documentation. Have you read it yet?

Regards,
Accession

... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
--- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.8
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Mortar:

ant:

Interestingly, TLDR's messages became malformed after
this post:
From: "Mortar" (VERT/EOTLBBS) <VERT/EOTLBBS!Mortar@nix.synchro.net>
To: finglonger
Subject: TLDR Reception
Message-ID: <697D1C92.646.dove-techtalk@endofthelinebbs.com>

where the poster complains that he cannor read them.

Is there a date for this? I don't recall such a message.

Yes, of course. Beg pardong for neglecting to quote the
date also. Here is what I have on the NNTP side:

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2026 15:03:14 -0600
X-Comment-To: finglonger
Path: nix.synchro.net!not-for-mail
Organization: End Of The Line BBS
Newsgroups: DOVE-Net.Tech_Talk
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.21b-Linux master/0958ba161 Jan 25 2026 GCC 13.3.0
WhenImported: 20260130131244-0800 41e0
WhenExported: 20260130141005-0800 41e0
ExportedFrom: VERT dove-tech 658
WhenImported: 20260130150314-0600 4168
WhenExported: 20260130151249-0600 4168
ExportedFrom: EOTLBBS dove-techtalk 646
References: <697D026D.657.dove-tech@vert.synchro.net>
User-Agent: SlyEdit 1.92e (2025-11-11) (ICE style)
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Re: Re: Hacking OpenAI ??, Claude leads R&D?,
By: ant to Accession on Sat Sep 19 2026 06:40 pm

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=h5nkvOqh

yet, if you search for `--h5nkvOqh', you shall find naught,

It's a bug - thanks for the report!
--
digital man (rob)

Sling Blade quote #13:
Karl: He lives inside of his own heart. That's an awful big place to live in. Norco, CA WX: 84.3°F, 47.0% humidity, 5 mph NNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs ---
■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Accession to ant:

Having investigated this issue, I conclude that it is
caused not by encoding settings in either Sylpheed or
Tin, but rather by the structure of TLDR's multipart
attachments, which has been broken since On 2026.02.02.

Okie dokie.. think what you want

It is not a question of what I want, but rather of what is
true, so pray don't dismiss my opinion that way. After all,
I have provided evidence to support it. Have you anything
to say against my evidence?

Thunderbird:
https://pharcyde.org/tldr-tb.png

Thunderbird displays it as an HTML page. How did you
receive it in Thunderbird -- as an e-mail, or an NNTP
article? On my NNTP side, the entire raw message has not a
vestige of HTML:

<https://freeshell.de/~antonius/news/tldr-20260920.txt>

so I am at a loss what Thunderbird is showing. Can you post
the same entire raw message as seen on your NNTP side?

https://pharcyde.org/tldr-slrn-headers.png

This is /most/ interesting, becase your slrn reports:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

whereas my Tin and Sylpheed report:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=HcXDvzbz

Since headers are an inherent part of the message, our
clients have nothing to do with it. It seems that your NNTP
server provides those articles differently from mine. My
NNTP server is <nntp://nix.synchro.net>. What is yours? If
they are substantially different, that will expalin the
situaion: all newsreaders on your side render it correct,
and none does on my side.

https://pharcyde.org/tldr-slrn-message.png

Normal rendering of a normal plain-text message.

Subject: SpaceX merger ?, OpenAI races Anthropic IPO ?,
AI replacing SaaS ??

There's nothing correct about the question marks in the
subject line above. That looks like if UTF-8 glyphs were
to be viewed in something setup for CP437. om which it
can't be translated.

Right. There is an encoding problem somewhere in the path.
Let us ignore it for now and focus on the message stucture,
because our NNTP servers seem to be perceiving the same
message differently. Perhaps my server is somehow
truncating the messages, amputating HTML parts, and magling
the articles in the process. This is why I propose that we
compare /the entire raw message/ between you and me. This
will provide the ultimate source of truth, independent of
the local encoding, mime, and other settings in our clients.

Note "charset=utf-8" while you're using ascii and/or
cp437.

Yes, I have noted that. My message are encoded CP437 in Tin
and US-ASCII in Sylpheed. But the endoing of outoing
messages does not interefere with the parsing of incoming
ones. They are totallyl orthogonal.

My newsreaders are therefore correct in displaying it as
an empty message.

Ok, lol.

Why do you cut my explanation and laugh?

They even display fine, when Synchronet itself is
configured correctly (ie. logged into the BBS). Is it
possible that the specific site where you are viewing them
from is messing up the original messages?

This is my current hypothesis, exactly. I read those
messages via <nntp://nix.synchro.net> .

Or, just ignore the message area if it doesn't work for
you. Since you're using a newsreader, you can simply just
unsubscribe.

Nah, it does not fix anything.

It works for me, and I vote to keep it as is. _

If the problem I am having is caused by
<nntp://nix.synchro.net>, rather than TLDR, then I agree.

If you can't see the UTF-8 glyph I just included in the
line above, it's a "you" thing (or something messed it up
between me and you).

Or something in the route of the message from its origin to
you and to me. I now conjecture it was distorted on the way
to my side.
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Accession:

Tin can definitely support different quote prefixes,
including initials before the quote character. Tin even
mentions "fidonet-style quoting" in their documentation.
Have you read it yet?

Yes, and yes, and I have said so several times. The problem
is that the quoting settings in Tin are /global/ and apply
to all newsservers, whereas I need e-mail-style quotes on
conventional Usenet servers and FidoNet-style quotes on
FidoNet and BBS bridges.

Is it the same way with slrn?
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Digital Man:

It's a bug - thanks for the report!

Bug where -- in Synchronix? I was indeed going to report it
in a local Synchrnonix area.
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Re: Re: Hacking OpenAI ??, Claude leads R&D?,
By: ant to Digital Man on Sun Sep 20 2026 01:59 am

Digital Man:

It's a bug - thanks for the report!

Bug where -- in Synchronix? I was indeed going to report it
in a local Synchrnonix area.

The bug is/was in Synchronet (not fixed upstream). Synchronix (the BBS you're using) could've work around it by enabling MIME-encoded messages in their QWK hub configuration (for VERT) in SCFG, but now they shouldn't need to do that since the fix was on the hub's side and already made/in-place. You should not get those MIME headers (on nix.synchro.net / DOVE-Net subs) going forward.
--
digital man (rob)

Steven Wright quote #27:
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
Norco, CA WX: 83.8°F, 45.0% humidity, 8 mph WNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs ---
■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Hey Digital!

On Sat, Sep 19 2026 15:36:16 -0700, Digital Man wrote to ant:

It's a bug - thanks for the report!

Why would it work on every NNTP client I've tested with, and not his?

I mean, there /are/ settings for mime and quoted printable messages in tin, so maybe I was able to change mine to make it work? I think by default tin wants to export the message and view it somewhere else. I changed that setting to use the internal viewer, which worked. *shrug*

Regards,
Accession

... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
--- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.8
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Accession:

ant:

There is not such thing as Tin's built-in editor. It
relies on an external one, and I am using vi.

Ok then, "gq" or "gqip" maybe? I don't use vi, but vi(m)
also has the ability to do this.

gq is a Vim invention. But in vi one can process a
paragraph with an artibrary shell command, and, as I said,
par is made exactly for that purpose. Only it is a tad
tricky to learn. The manual ends with an apology from the
author:

Back in 1993 I had very little experience at writing
documentation for users, so the documentation for Par
became rather nightmarish.

Although your own posts are declared as format=flowed,
they are not flowed at all, using MS-style with each
paragraph represented as a single long line, whereas
true format=flowed paragraphs are wrapped to 72
characters per line or so, with each line but the last
ending in a trailing space.

If you say so.

It is not a matter of what I say, but of what is true.

Definition of Format=Flowed:

Format=flowed is a specification for formatting plain-
text emails that allows for dynamic line wrapping. This
method enables email clients to adjust the display of
text based on the recipient's screen width while
preserving the original structure of the message.

It is not the definition of format=flowed, but a loose
description of its purpose. It does not make the crucial
distinction between format=flowed and the primitive
longlinoitus -- the vicious practice of writing every
paragraph in a single line, no matter how long.
format=flowed was invented exactly to allow wrapping text to
arbitrary margins, while preserving the short lines and hard
line breaks required of tranditional text files, and
expected in traditional e-mail and Usenet clients, as
explained in RFC3676:

When generating Format=Flowed text, lines SHOULD be 78
characters or shorter, including any trailing white space
and also including any space added as part of stuffing
(see Section 4.4). As suggested values, any paragraph
longer than 78 characters in total length could be
wrapped using lines of 72 or fewer characters. While the
specific line length used is a matter of aesthetics and
preference, longer lines are more likely to require
rewrapping and to encounter difficulties with older
mailers. (It has been suggested that 66 character lines
are the most readable.)

The restriction to 78 or fewer characters between CRLFs
on the wire is to conform to [MSG-FMT].

(In addition to conformance to [MSG-FMT], there is a
historical need that all lines, even when displayed by a
non-flowed-aware program, will fit in a standard 79- or
80-column screen without having to be wrapped. The limit
is 78, not 79 or 80, because while 79 or 80 fit on a
line, the last column is often reserved for a line-wrap
indicator.)

Your lines are wa-a-ay longer than 78 characters, not to
mention 66. And none of your lines end with a traling space
character, so no -- your messages are not in format=flowed,
despite the declaration in the headers.

Seems like your side should wrap it to under 80 characters
(see "enables email clients") if you want it to be.

Not at all. By construction, format=flowed is backwards
compatible with the normal hard-wrapped text, so as not to
break traditional clients, yet let ff-aware ones to wrap
text to the available width.

I can resize my screen and the text takes up the whole
width at any given time.

This is not due to format=flowed, but due to soft-wrap in
your client. Windows Notead can do exactly the same, for
example, as well as any program expecting one long line per
paragraph, which includes the overwhelming majoriy of modern
text editors.

According The Chicago Manual of Typographical Style, a
comfortable line length is about 65 characters, so I am
often forced to resize my browser window in order to read
comfortably. Better websites, of course, have CSS
configured to limit the line length. 72-characters line I
can manage too, and I never ever let my code have lines
beyong 80 characters.
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Re: Re: Hacking OpenAI ??, Claude leads R&D?,
By: Accession to ant on Sat Sep 19 2026 12:36 pm

Okie dokie.. think what you want, but:

Thunderbird:
https://pharcyde.org/tldr-tb.png

Https://i.imgur.com/gAlhZPK.png

--
https://i.imgur.com/MNKA5U0.png
President of BBS Sysop's Union +++ https://bbses.info/union
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: Hacking OpenAI ??, Claude leads R&D?,
By: Accession to Digital Man on Sat Sep 19 2026 06:32 pm

Hey Digital!

On Sat, Sep 19 2026 15:36:16 -0700, Digital Man wrote to ant:

It's a bug - thanks for the report!

Why would it work on every NNTP client I've tested with, and not his?

Likely because he's connecting his to nix.synchro.net and you're not.

I mean, there /are/ settings for mime and quoted printable messages in tin, so maybe I was able to change mine to make it work? I think by default tin wants to export the message and view it somewhere else. I changed that setting to use the internal viewer, which worked. *shrug*

I think it's because nix.synchro.net is configured to *not* include MIME-encoded messages in their DOVE-Net QWK packets downloaded from VERT and your feed is not configured that way.
--
digital man (rob)

Breaking Bad quote #5:
Sometimes the forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest. - Hank Schrader
Norco, CA WX: 63.4°F, 90.0% humidity, 2 mph NNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs ---
■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Re: Re: Hacking OpenAI ??, Claude leads R&D?,
By: ant to Accession on Sun Sep 20 2026 03:09 am

longlinoitus -- the vicious practice of writing every

Is AI writing your message text?
--
digital man (rob)

Sling Blade quote #10:
Morris: I stand on the hill, not for thrill, but for the breath of a fresh kill Norco, CA WX: 63.4°F, 90.0% humidity, 2 mph NNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs ---
■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Hey ant!

On Sun, Sep 20 2026 01:52:54 +0300, ant wrote to Accession:

Thunderbird displays it as an HTML page. How did you receive it in Thunderbird -- as an e-mail, or an NNTP article? On my NNTP side, the entire raw message has not a vestige of HTML:

That was an NNTP article, and how the article *should* be displayed. However, when using a text based nntp client like tin or slrn, they pull the html out of it and render the plain text message properly.

so I am at a loss what Thunderbird is showing. Can you post the same
entire raw message as seen on your NNTP side?

That was from my nntp side.

This is /most/ interesting, becase your slrn reports:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

whereas my Tin and Sylpheed report:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=HcXDvzbz

I think I know the issue now.

1) DM/Rob has put in a fix for your report.
2) I have my nntp server setup to force everything to utf-8. I'm willing to bet your nntp server doesn't.

Right. There is an encoding problem somewhere in the path. Let us ignore
it for now and focus on the message stucture, because our NNTP servers
seem to be perceiving the same message differently. Perhaps my server is somehow truncating the messages, amputating HTML parts, and magling the articles in the process. This is why I propose that we compare /the entire raw message/ between you and me. This will provide the ultimate source of truth, independent of the local encoding, mime, and other settings in our clients.

See above #2. I believe that is the difference. I was doing some investigating back around the time this was being worked on, and apparently reported something similar to what you are reporting now. When I was able to render these messages properly, I stopped investigating. I asked for a feature to translate everything on the nntp server to utf-8, which is probably why I stopped seeing the issue you're seeing now.

Yes, I have noted that. My message are encoded CP437 in Tin and US-ASCII
in Sylpheed. But the endoing of outoing messages does not interefere with the parsing of incoming ones. They are totallyl orthogonal.

Correct. If those messages do not carry a utf-8 charset, they are sent wrong from the server.

Great catch, and thank you for the report (a fix has already been committed, your server just needs to update).

Why do you cut my explanation and laugh?

Because I have never seen that issue, even up until now. I apologize for assuming you were wrong.

If the problem I am having is caused by <nntp://nix.synchro.net>, rather than TLDR, then I agree.

I think it's based on settings your server is using as far as it displaying properly, but there was still an issue that needed to be addressed. I have the recent changes applied here, if you want to see if it works for you (you would need to create an account first via telnet or http(s)):

nntp://news.pharcyde.org

Regards,
Accession

... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.

--- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.8
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Hey ant!

On Sun, Sep 20 2026 01:56:18 +0300, ant wrote to Accession:

Yes, and yes, and I have said so several times. The problem is that the quoting settings in Tin are /global/ and apply to all newsservers, whereas I need e-mail-style quotes on conventional Usenet servers and
FidoNet-style quotes on FidoNet and BBS bridges.

Ah, I see. You may need to run two separate configurations/instances? Or you could just use email-style quoting everywhere, if you don't absolutely need initials before your quote characters.

Is it the same way with slrn?

No. slrn only supports the traditional email-style quoting. Which I'm fine with. Fidonet-style quote characters are not a forced thing. You can still use email-style quoting in Fido style networks and BBSs. I'm only using initials now because my editor supports them. Otherwise, I sometimes prefer email-style quoting over the rest.

Regards,
Accession

... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.

--- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.8
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Hey MRO!

On Sat, Sep 19 2026 20:40:52 -0500, MRO wrote to Accession:

Https://i.imgur.com/gAlhZPK.png

Yes, that's how it's supposed to look when html is removed and it's displayed as plain text only.

Regards,
Accession

... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.

--- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.8
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Hey ant!

On Sun, Sep 20 2026 03:09:18 +0300, ant wrote to Accession:

It is not the definition of format=flowed, but a loose description of its purpose. It does not make the crucial distinction between format=flowed
and the primitive longlinoitus -- the vicious practice of writing every paragraph in a single line, no matter how long. format=flowed was invented exactly to allow wrapping text to arbitrary margins, while preserving the short lines and hard line breaks required of tranditional text files, and expected in traditional e-mail and Usenet clients, as explained in
RFC3676:

Thank you for the class, but I prefer to utilize the entire width of my terminal, rather than limit and/or soft wrap anything. I will, however, keep quoting conventional and within the 72-78 character limit.

Regards,
Accession

... Sarcasm, because beating people up is illegal.
--- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.8
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Hey Digital!

On Sun, Sep 20 2026 02:55:46 -0700, Digital Man wrote to Accession:

I think it's because nix.synchro.net is configured to *not* include MIME-encoded messages in their DOVE-Net QWK packets downloaded from VERT and your feed is not configured that way.

That would explain it. Thanks!

Regards,
Accession

... Sarcasm, because beating people up is illegal.
--- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.8
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

MRO:

Https://i.imgur.com/gAlhZPK.png

Oooph: imgur is a bad image hosting. This is a deceptive URL, in
that it looks like a direct reference to a PNG image, but in
reality opens a web page, which can't be displayed correctly
without Java'sCreep. Java'sCreep is not required to show an
image in the first place, and they have never heard of graceful
degradation in the second place.

catbox.moe and litterbox.catbox.moe are better services for
persistent and temporary image hosting.
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Accession:

Ah, I see. You may need to run two separate configurations/instances?

Exactly. What I can do is to write a shell wrapper for tin that
would substitute (or modify) tinrc based on the newserver alias
supplied via -g.

Or you could just use email-style quoting everywhere, if you don't
absolutely need initials before your quote characters.

Thanks, I needed that permission. I have my won (G)roff macros
to handle all sorts of quotes, but they cannot reformat existing
quotes, requiring manual work.

You can still use email-style quoting in Fido style networks

At least /some/ Fidonet echoes require traditional Fidonet quotes,
which made me write my (G)roff macros for them.
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Digital Man to ant:

longlinoitus -- the vicious practice of writing every

Is AI writing your message text?

No, thanks. So far, I have been able to keep the artificial idiot
/completely/ out of my life, although it is getting harder. Futhermore,
using it to write prose is a grave disrespect for the readers, and
especially so if done covertly, without warning.

I heard the term `longlinoitus' in a documentary about some prominent programmer, where his tutor was criticising his code for too long lines.
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Hey ant!

On Sat, Sep 19 2026 17:56:18 -0500, you wrote:

Yes, and yes, and I have said so several times. The problem
is that the quoting settings in Tin are /global/ and apply
to all newsservers, whereas I need e-mail-style quotes on
conventional Usenet servers and FidoNet-style quotes on
FidoNet and BBS bridges.

Is it the same way with slrn?

This reply is a followup with slrn. "quote_string" is defaulted to ">". I've set mine to " >". Seems to automatically add a space afterwards. I think this quoting style is cleaner than the "Fido" style.

There is no option to add initials, like tin has. I believe the current maintainer of tin (Urs Janßen) was either a member of Fidonet at some point, or friends with people that were (the German Fidonet community have contributed a lot in the past). I've contacted him in the last couple years with bug reports, and he seemed to have somewhat of an understanding, or at least knowldge (ie. at the very least he's heard of it), about Fidonet technology.

Regards,
Nick

... Sarcasm: because beating people up is illegal.
---
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Accesstion to ant:

It is not the definition of format=flowed, but a loose
description of its purpose. It does not make the
crucial distinction between format=flowed and the
primitive longlinoitus -- the vicious practice of
writing every paragraph in a single line, no matter how
long. format=flowed was invented exactly to allow
wrapping text to arbitrary margins, while preserving
the short lines and hard line breaks required of
tranditional text files, and expected in traditional
e-mail and Usenet clients, as explained in RFC3676:

Thank you for the class, but I prefer to utilize the
entire width of my terminal, rather than limit and/or
soft wrap anything. I will, however, keep quoting
conventional and within the 72-78 character limit.

I fear you misunderstood my lesson :-) format=flowed is made
to let you and your readers utilise the entire width of your
and their screens, while retaining compatibility with
normal hard-wrapped text. Therefore, you can be writing
proper format=flowed, utilizing the entire width of your
screen while both composing and reading, and at the same
time keeping your messages compatible with traditional
clients like mine. All you have to do is use a client that
supports format=flowed. You client does not support it, or
it has a bug, or is misconfigured. I can help you with that.

I will, however, keep quoting conventional and within
the 72-78 character limit.

Producing self-contractory posts that are neither proper
format=flowed, nor proper hardwrapped plaintext? Bad idea,
but you may be forced to do it because of your client...
--
^o^
---
* Synchronet * My Brand-New BBS (All the cool SysOps run STOCK!)

Hey ant!

On Sun, Sep 20 2026 17:34:16 +0300, ant wrote to Accession:

At least /some/ Fidonet echoes require traditional Fidonet quotes, which made me write my (G)roff macros for them.

Which echos would those be? I use this quote prefix wherever I want (I ditched the initials in this editor for this message). Fidonet's "standards" haven't been updated in ages to reflect the times, nor will they probably ever be. The FTSC doesn't do much of documenting anything, these days. ;(

Regards,
Accession

... Politicians and diapers should be changed regularly for the same reasons. --- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.9
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Hey ant!

On Sun, Sep 20 2026 17:50:18 +0300, you wrote:

I fear you misunderstood my lesson :-) format=flowed is made to let you
and your readers utilise the entire width of your and their screens,
while retaining compatibility with normal hard-wrapped text. Therefore,
you can be writing proper format=flowed, utilizing the entire width of
your screen while both composing and reading, and at the same time
keeping your messages compatible with traditional clients like mine. All
you have to do is use a client that supports format=flowed. You client
does not support it, or it has a bug, or is misconfigured. I can help
you with that.

The text above was wrapped (hard?) at 62 characters. Hard wrapped text hasn't been "normal" for quite some time. I had to manually reflow it after quoting. This is why I use nano with it's "set fill 72" option, and using CTRL-J on your quoted text to make it look better, take up the space it should, and hopefully remove any hard wraps involved.

Producing self-contractory posts that are neither proper format=flowed,
nor proper hardwrapped plaintext? Bad idea, but you may be forced to do
it because of your client...

So is hard-wrapping, in my opinion. I'm a fan of leaving it alone and letting the next person's client arrange it the way they want it to. Whether it be viewed on a 40 character wide, or a 160 character wide window or console.

So, we can agree to disagree here.

Regards,
Accession

... Be kind to your kids, they'll be choosing your nursing home.
--- AmberEdit/linux 0.8.9
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
￭ Synchronet ￭ _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)