Hello Maurice!

Only if there are humans still controlling them. On their
own they lack the desire to become overlords of anything.
What for?

Right. AI machines won't ever develop the consciousness to
understand what they are doing.

I just finished watching the film Ex Machina from a
recommendation. Although it's the best "AI" film I've seen
that depicts the machinery of an android beautifully,
prominently and in an original way, the film lacked "how" did
the machine develop the idea that it needed to "escape".

Someone proposed that if so instructed to solve the global
warming crisis, AI could easily determine that humans are
responsible and thus the solution would be to eliminate
all humans.

But.. instructions could include hard rules not to harm humans.

Perhaps we should move this topic to CHAT or COFFEE_KLATSCH or
ANYTHING_GOES
--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.58
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hello August,

On Tue, Nov 26 2024 21:28:00 -0600, you wrote ..

Perhaps we should move this topic to CHAT or COFFEE_KLATSCH or
ANYTHING_GOES

Nah. This entire time we were assuming these AI robots were powered by
Linux, so it's still on topic!

Everyone's so keen to move messages places where there is absolutely no conversation going on. I'd rather dwindle down the list of echos I carry
and contribute to the ones that there's actual conversation in.

Maurice keeps this one active, and the testing is fun - and away from
the icky people. :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nicholas!

Maurice keeps this one active, and the testing is fun - and away
from the icky people. :)

Heh, heh. I couldn't have said it better myself. Originally I was just looking for a place where I could post the results of bashist routines not unlike what we were doing with trans.

Lately has been a bit of a chore due to all the probing and I hope to have that all done with by next week sometime. The top of th TODO list is the quoting thingy we were talking about using fold and sed.

I really like the Anglo-Saxon quote below. For me it says it all.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o -o o- -o
(\ (\ /) (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... þa þurfon swiþe lytles, þe maran ne willniaþ þonne genoges.
They need very little who desire no more than enough.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.32(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hello Maurice,

On Wed, Nov 27 2024 23:18:35 -0600, you wrote ..

Heh, heh. I couldn't have said it better myself. Originally I was
just looking for a place where I could post the results of bashist
routines not unlike what we were doing with trans.

While you were doing this, at some point I skimmed past and thought it
was interesting. Now, here I am and the rest is history!

Lately has been a bit of a chore due to all the probing and I hope
to have that all done with by next week sometime. The top of th
TODO list is the quoting thingy we were talking about using fold and
sed.

No worries. Take your time as your health comes first. Hopefully you can
get a clean bill of health until they (aliens, right?) want to probe you again. :)

I really like the Anglo-Saxon quote below. For me it says it all.

... þa þurfon swiþe lytles, þe maran ne willniaþ þonne genoges.

Are you still getting these from the same place? Or did you find a new
site to snag from? I remember there only being about 50 or so on that
original site I found some of your quotes on, so figured you've already
went through all of those by now.

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hello Nicholas!

Perhaps we should move this topic to CHAT or COFFEE_KLATSCH or
ANYTHING_GOES

Nah. This entire time we were assuming these AI robots were powered by Linux, so it's still on topic!

Ah.. that makes sense. :D

Everyone's so keen to move messages places where there is
absolutely no conversation going on. I'd rather dwindle
down the list of echos I carry and contribute to the ones
that there's actual conversation in.

Just trying to encourage utilizing other echos as a means to
invite other people to join in if the topic is of interest.

THAT is the way to build "ones that there's actual conversation
in" too. ;)



--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.58
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hello August,

On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 06:41:00 -0600, you wrote ..

Just trying to encourage utilizing other echos as a means to
invite other people to join in if the topic is of interest.

If the topic is of interest to anyone, they can definitely chime in right here, too!

Unless you're referring to spam/cross posting our conversation to multiple echos to see if anyone bites? Though, I'm not really interested in chasing our not-so-very imporatant conversation around Fidonet, either.

THAT is the way to build "ones that there's actual conversation
in" too. ;)

If we did that, this echo would end up empty, then. I don't think it matters where we have our conversation. If people want in, they'll join no matter where the conversation is taking place.

At the rate of decline of this network, we should be happy we have any conversation at all, to be honest. At this point, there's more robot postings in Fidonet than actual conversation. :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nicholas!

Hopefully you can get a clean bill of health until they (aliens,
right?) want to probe you again. :)

I think this is the last of e probing and if it shows negative to internal bleeding then the aliens are going to have to switch their tactics since there has to be a cause. Personally I am thinking it is an over active liver and not internal bleeding but we'll soon enough find out. So far all indications are my internal organs, including liver, show no sign of damage.

... þa þurfon swiþe lytles, þe maran ne willniaþ þonne genoges.

Are you still getting these from the same place?

Originally yes but over the years have added to the list. However not all are Anglo-Saxon although the majority are. They all have utf-8 characters since that was the main reason for the tagline list although the Anglo-Saxon ones were to ensure "English only" text for those anal moderators. ;-)

<Esc>:read !wc -l < ~/etc/taglines.list
234

Definetly more than 50 now. If you'd like a copy I could forward it to you. There isn't a copyright on any of them.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o -o o- -o
(\ (\ /) (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Bald bið se ðe onbyregeð boca cræftes.
Bold shall he be who tastes of the skill of books.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.32(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hello Maurice,

On Thu, Nov 28 2024 10:36:22 -0600, you wrote ..

I think this is the last of e probing and if it shows negative to
internal bleeding then the aliens are going to have to switch their
tactics since there has to be a cause. Personally I am thinking it
is an over active liver and not internal bleeding but we'll soon
enough find out. So far all indications are my internal organs,
including liver, show no sign of damage.

Here's hoping for some more good news, and the sooner the better!

<Esc>:read !wc -l < ~/etc/taglines.list 234

Definetly more than 50 now. If you'd like a copy I could forward it
to you. There isn't a copyright on any of them.

Very impressive. Collecting taglines is definitely something easy enough
I can handle on my own. sed and fold are the troublesome ones I need a
bit of assistance with.

Aside from all that, it's Thanksgiving here in the US, so soon we're off
to see family to gorge ourselves in a meal that will probably make me
want to take a nap. :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hello Nicholas!

** On Thursday 28.11.24 - 08:19, Nicholas Boel wrote to All:

Just trying to encourage utilizing other echos as a means to
invite other people to join in if the topic is of interest.

If the topic is of interest to anyone, they can definitely
chime in right here, too!

That's if the topic is linux, but you know that I am referring
to other topics (ie, off-topic) that might crop up here.

Unless you're referring to spam/cross posting our
conversation to multiple echos to see if anyone bites?
Though, I'm not really interested in chasing our not-so-
very imporatant conversation around Fidonet, either.

It's not chasing at all. It's just going to the proper room to
be on topic.

THAT is the way to build "ones that there's actual
conversation in" too. ;)

If we did that, this echo would end up empty, then. I
don't think it matters where we have our conversation. If
people want in, they'll join no matter where the
conversation is taking place.

If you're ok with off-topic messages in any echo, what's the
point in having named echos? The echos in FTN may as well be
just a number. Echos have a name for a reason - to indicate a
topic. And if the topic veers, there are other appropriate
echos to take it there.

At the rate of decline of this network, we should be happy
we have any conversation at all, to be honest. At this
point, there's more robot postings in Fidonet than actual
conversation. :)

At this rate we should encourage good stewardship of echos and
support the available ones too, unlike what has happend to
newsgroups filled with totally unrelated things in their areas.

Sadly, yes.. FTN/echos is not necessarily a growing tech. But
we shouldn't allow it to become like the garbage bin that many
newsgroups have become.

FUTURE4FIDO echo is a fine place to have this conversation.
The echo is one of several that participates in the Telegram
BBS project which facilites bridging smartphone users to FTN
users. I believe the Telegram BBS is written entirely in perl.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.58
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hello August,

On Sat, Nov 30 2024 07:51:00 -0600, you wrote ..

That's if the topic is linux, but you know that I am referring
to other topics (ie, off-topic) that might crop up here.

The thing is, most of the topic is regarding Linux and/or commands we can use in Linux. If a few messages veers a teeny tiny bit, or for a thread to all of a sudden change to health updates, or a holiday, or whatever, I'm not all for up and moving the discussion elsewhere, so long as we come back to the original topic - which we have been doing.

It's not chasing at all. It's just going to the proper room to
be on topic.

There's over 200 Fidonet echos, of which probably 90% (or more) of them have been dead for years or even decades. See if you can encourage the powers that be (I don't even think there are 'powers that be') to trim down the echolist to about 50 or less not so redundant echos and I don't have a problem with this idea at all. Everyone has been encouraged over the years to create as many echos as they want, but nobody has ever encouraged people to pick up after themselves and/or clean up their shit when they're not using it any more. So good luck with that challenge. ;)

If you're ok with off-topic messages in any echo, what's the
point in having named echos? The echos in FTN may as well be
just a number. Echos have a name for a reason - to indicate a
topic. And if the topic veers, there are other appropriate
echos to take it there.

If we were to veer that far off topic, then you're probably right. However, one or two messages don't constitute moving the entire thread elsewhere as that will probably more than likely kill the conversation, rather than help it.

At this rate we should encourage good stewardship of echos and
support the available ones too, unlike what has happend to
newsgroups filled with totally unrelated things in their areas.

I agree with you on this. However, "good stewardship" of echos also requires maintenance, ie trimming the fat and unnecessary echos, maybe even combining some that have close relation to others. Something that hasn't been done for decades, nor has anyone cared to do it in all that time - which has already made it become the "newsgroups" you speak of.

Sadly, yes.. FTN/echos is not necessarily a growing tech. But
we shouldn't allow it to become like the garbage bin that many
newsgroups have become.

I also agree with you here. Have you read some of the FTN echos here in Fidonet? Some are already a garbage bin, and some get the exact same robot postings in them over and over (even the same robot postings in multiple echos). Some of us, including myself, try to avoid those newsgroups errrr echos. ;)

FUTURE4FIDO echo is a fine place to have this conversation.
The echo is one of several that participates in the Telegram
BBS project which facilites bridging smartphone users to FTN
users. I believe the Telegram BBS is written entirely in perl.

Honestly, I have no interest in Telegram whatsoever, and I don't believe that subject ever came up until you wrote this paragraph. So there's no reason for me to move any conversation there, seeing as though nothing I would say there would be on-topic.

Now, I would love to go back to discussing Linux so we can stay on-topic and not have to move our discussion elsewhere!

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hello Nick!

That's if the topic is linux, but you know that I am
referring to other topics (ie, off-topic) that might crop
up here.

The thing is, most of the topic is regarding Linux and/or
commands we can use in Linux. If a few messages veers a
teeny tiny bit, or for a thread to all of a sudden change
to health updates, or a holiday, or whatever, I'm not all
for up and moving the discussion elsewhere, so long as we
come back to the original topic - which we have been
doing.

I agree. Nothing wrong with an occassional and brief diversion.

I'll take the rest of my response to your comments to netmail.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.58
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hello Maurice,

On Thu, Nov 28 2024 10:36:22 -0600, you wrote ..

... þa þurfon swiþe lytles, þe maran ne willniaþ þonne genoges.

Originally yes but over the years have added to the list. However not
all are Anglo-Saxon although the majority are. They all have utf-8 characters since that was the main reason for the tagline list
although the Anglo-Saxon ones were to ensure "English only" text for
those anal moderators. ;-)

While I already responded to this, here is a test with nano and the "set fill 72" option set in .nanorc. With this setting, while replying, going to the first quote character in your unwrapped long line/paragraph and hitting CTRL-J wraps the entire sentence/paragraph at 72 characters quite nicely (much like the 'gq' does in vim).

However, as of right now the spaces at the end of the lines are included (to keep flowed text in tact), and in a quote this may not be wanted. Otherwise, if it wraps the quoted text nicely then we may be on to something here! :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hello Maurice,

On Thu, Dec 05 2024 21:32:49 -0600, you wrote ..

For example, in nano, try "set fill 69" in conjunction with "set justifytrim" which removes the whitespace at the end of the lines.

For example, in nano, try "set fill 69" in conjunction with "set justifytrim" which removes the whitespace at the end of the lines.

Even though they look the same they aren't. Can you tell which is which?

Sure. The first one you trimmed the blanks at the end, and the second one they're there.

Was the second one with fold or just "set trimblanks" disabled?

Maybe the difference is that fold does (or doesn't) include the blanks in it's count, whereas nano does (or doesn't) if you have them enabled? Which one do you think is doing it incorrectly?

BTW I can't find "set justifytrim" so instead I enabled "set trimblanks" which looks to be the same end result.

Ah, seems the .nanorc in my home directory is quite a bit outdated. You are correct, they've removed 'justifytrim' at some point. :)

<Esc>:read !nano --version
GNU nano, version 8.2
(C) 2024 the Free Software Foundation and various contributors
Compiled options: --enable-utf8

Mine is the exact same, except my .nanorc is probably about as old as my last contact with the developers for the feature I was looking for. I should probably take a look at some of the new options I never knew about. :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nick!

Was the second one with fold or just "set trimblanks" disabled?

It was 'fold -s -w 69'. The first is nano with "set trimblanks" and "set fill 69".

Which one do you think is doing it incorrectly?

Neither, they are true to what they're called up to do. Offhand I suspect that fold is more DOSsie and it is usually one character shy of how others define the length of a string. For example FTN standards list the subject field at 72 characters when it is really 71. The 72nd character is \0, which is ye' olde string delimiter and in the case of MSGs it is a field delimiter. Offhand I'd go with fold's specifiers and have .nanorc "set fill 68" which is one less than fold but produces the same end result as 'fold -s -w 69'.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o -o o- -o
(\ (\ /) (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Man byþ on myrgþe his magan leof; sceal þeah anra gehwylc oðrum swican.
Man in joy is dear to his kin; but they will have to part.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hello Maurice,

On Fri, Dec 06 2024 18:45:27 -0600, you wrote ..

It was 'fold -s -w 69'. The first is nano with "set trimblanks" and
"set fill 69".

I knew what the first one was, but there was two possibilities for the second.

Neither, they are true to what they're called up to do. Offhand I
suspect that fold is more DOSsie and it is usually one character shy
of how others define the length of a string. For example FTN
standards list the subject field at 72 characters when it is really
71. The 72nd character is \0, which is ye' olde string delimiter and
in the case of MSGs it is a field delimiter. Offhand I'd go with
fold's specifiers and have .nanorc "set fill 68" which is one less
than fold but produces the same end result as 'fold -s -w 69'.

Ok, I suppose if nothing is wrong, then we carry on like it never happened!

Ikiwa haijavunjwa, usiirekebishe! :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nick!

Ok, I suppose if nothing is wrong, then we carry on like it never happened!

It's more a question of what works than what is right or wrong. Setting the width so that a quote prefix can be added will assure us that older DOS-think abandonware doesn't run over it's 79 character limit for displayed line lengths makes this quoting method superior, with or without spaces an the end. Leaving them in will make this a lossless method of quoting.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o -o o- o-
(\ (\ /) /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Forst sceal freosan, fyr wudu meltan, eorþe growan, is brycgian.
Frost must freeze, fire melt wood, earth grow, ice form bridges.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hello Maurice,

On Fri, Dec 06 2024 20:36:29 -0600, you wrote ..

It's more a question of what works than what is right or wrong.
Setting the width so that a quote prefix can be added will assure us
that older DOS-think abandonware doesn't run over it's 79 character
limit for displayed line lengths makes this quoting method superior,
with or without spaces an the end. Leaving them in will make this a lossless method of quoting.

Definitely! However, after it leaves our systems who knows what the abandonware will do with it. By the time it's quoted for the third time it's already either wrapped or text is straight up cut off the ends of the lines if they go too long.

What were they thinking?

Was it ever a standard or even 'normal' to cut text off the ends of lines when quoted? Or was that just a terrible and/or lazy implementation of quoting in whatever software was doing it?

It looks like the initial release of the "fold" command was some time in 1977, although I'm not sure when it became cross-platform.

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hey Nick!

who knows what the abandonware will do with it.

That is why we're giving it at least 7 characters to play with. I have been known to wrap entire messages to 72 characters just to take care of their obvious handicap. Them were the good ol' days.

What were they thinking?

Strong like bull, smart like tractor?

As far as I know, quoting has never been covered in ftn standards. The tradition has become to put the initials of the quotee in the quote prefix along with the '>' character. However I think just the '>' character is more universal and makes things easier, especially when using vim or nano as the MSG editor of choice.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o -o o- -o
(\ (\ /) (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Ich habe Eichhörnchen in meiner Hose!
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hello Maurice,

On Sat, Dec 07 2024 07:45:47 -0600, you wrote ..

That is why we're giving it at least 7 characters to play with. I
have been known to wrap entire messages to 72 characters just to take
care of their obvious handicap. Them were the good ol' days.

"Good ol' days?" I don't think much has changed.

Strong like bull, smart like tractor?

Pretty much!

As far as I know, quoting has never been covered in ftn standards.
The tradition has become to put the initials of the quotee in the
quote prefix along with the '>' character. However I think just the

' character is more universal and makes things easier, especially

when using vim or nano as the MSG editor of choice.

Yeah, but common sense would reveal that you probably shouldn't _eliminate_ random text within sentences from the original message that you are quoting. I can see entire sentences or paragraphs, but not whatever is dangling at the end of 80 columns. Darn tractors. :)

The '> ' prefix is definitely more universal, not only for FTN, but newsgroups and email as well. However, initials don't bother me much if they're there or not, as I don't usually look at them, and normally don't quote past the first level anyways.

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
--- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
* Origin: _thePharcyde telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (1:154/700)

Hi Maurice,

On 2024-12-07 13:45:47, you wrote to Nick Boel:

As far as I know, quoting has never been covered in ftn standards.

Not a standard, but there was a proposal: http://ftsc.org/docs/fsc-0032.001


Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.3.2.4-B20240523
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hey Wilfred!

Not a standard, but there was a proposal: http://ftsc.org/docs/fsc-0032.001

Excellent! Thanks for the heads up and I'll definetly check it out just to see if there is anything there worth the effort of coding it. At the least, proposals require some tweaking especially considering compatibility with abandonware/crippleware.

Life is good,
Maurice

o- -o -o -o
/) (\ (\ (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Hafa ðu geleafa to lifes frumon; gewuna þar ðu wunodest.
Have faith in the creator of life; dwell where you have dwelt.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hey Nick!

"Good ol' days?" I don't think much has changed.

I never did care much for newsgroups, but that had little to nothing to do with compatibility. What passes for email these days really sucks, quotes or no quotes.

The '> ' prefix is definitely more universal, not only for FTN,
but newsgroups and email as well.

Agreed. I think it would be the best way to handle this all things considered. I will definetly adjust accordingly from here on in. As for the trailing spaces I am inclined to keep them where they exist but getting rid of them is of no real concern. If I discover something that indicates differently I'll let you know.

Life is good,
Maurice

o- -o o- -o
/) (\ /) (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Widgongel wif word gespringeð, oft hy mon wommum bilihð.
A far-wandering woman causes talk; often she is accused of sins.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)